my mom

[Orodrist]

I figured that C$ wasn't one to carelessly toss around the word. But seriously, he started so please elaborate.

is that 420 leaves printed on that blanket?

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure we can still say marijuana here. Or pot, or Mary Jane, or something else that sounds less moronic than 420 leaves.

[Chozon1]

REEFER. IS IT REEFER

she is against letting them babysit people's kids

Call me Dr. Strange, but I'm not seeing the problem. Kids emulate the people they hang around with, and are more likely to accept something as "OK" if an adult they like does it. For example, my babysitters once drugged me to put me to sleep. I see this as acceptable practice now.

[CountKrazy]

When you say homophobic, do you mean it in the correct sense in that your mom has an irrational fear, bordering on panic, of homosexual people? Or the annoying punk way, meaning your mom has less than total acceptance of homosexuality being a correct way to live?

You rock.

Sometimes I genuinely feel bewildered by the obtuse nature of some posts on this site, Christian or otherwise

Let's try and figure out why these "annoying punks" (I think this forum fails to realize how many of the people they regularly insult are in fact on this forum) use that word the way they do. For one, I think the parent reserves the right to decide who babysits their kids, no matter what the reason may be, but this reason of all reasons once again brings me to slowly facepalming myself and creating such a severe reverberation through space and time that everything ceases to exist and in some other universe I become a dog named Frank

I don't know if you all remember being a kid, but there is a vast difference between emulating what you think is "cool" at the time and, you know, becoming gay. There are a butt-ton of things that people made me think were cool that I emulated as a kid and entirely grew out of because they weren't ever a part of me as a person

I had a lot of opportunities and influences that could've made me gay and a lot of pressure (like bullies convincing me that I was) to be gay. I didn't become gay, because I'm not gay. This is truly an incredibly simplistic thing. Yeah, maybe sometimes people realize later in life that they prefer relationships with the same sex, but I'd hazard a guess that those feelings have been deeply repressed for a very long time. You can blame "peer pressure" for those feelings being planted, but you'd be fundamentally wrong. If you're arguing that peer pressure causes homosexuality, then it has to go the other way, and I guarantee you that there is far more peer pressure in a kid's life telling them to not be gay. The logic isn't sound and it gives way entirely to paranoia and therefore, you have homophobia

I get that people think homosexuality is wrong and there's not much I can do about that but at the very least please try and grasp this notion. People will be gay whether they think it's normal or not. You can continue going around saying "oh I hate your sin but I love you as a person, but stay away from my children, I don't want you rubbing off on them" or you can just accept that your kid is going to meet a lot of openly gay people in the coming years and chances are they're already interacting with druggies, abusers, killers, etc. God knows I did growing up and I never knew it

My mom is horrified at the notion of me being excellent friends with a gay person. I ask her how she feels about the fact that probably every single one of my friends, Christian or not, either gets drunk, looks at porn, sleeps around, cusses like a badger, or all of those things at once. She says I shouldn't be friends with any of those people. Turns out I wouldn't have any friends at all. And I'd have to disown more than half of my family.

I love pretty much everyone I've met that stands by the "hate the sin, love the sinner" argument, but I will never, ever find a measure of legitimacy to it in regards to homosexuality, because nobody who applies to it lives it positively because as it turns out, you are what you do, and gay people sleep with gay people, so that roundabout theory brings you consistently back to hating gay people. When you get down to the wire, there is always discrimination involved, whether in the form of a mother choosing to not let a gay person babysit their kids or in the form of someone not being friends with a gay person. But to you guys I'm an annoying punk, and what I say will only continue to be lost in what is, if I may frankly and respectfully say, the formidable ego and imperceptible identity of the religious body. So many people here and in my own daily life really know how to forgo constructive arguments in favor of tossing the proverbial tomato at people whom you have generally classified as "persecutors" and "tightwads" because of those bunches that fulfill those titles. I and many others like me may be accusing you of practicing hate, but I'm certainly not defining you with that or allowing it to affect what is largely a very positive relationship with most of you. What I find infinitely more obstructive to a positive relationship is the general "shut up, freak ball" attitude and once again the lack of really pursuing the reasoning and meaning behind certain people's actions and choices

Bet you $5 someone wants to tell me that if I get so bothered by these Christian values then I should just leave

[ccgr]

For starters I don't believe that "gayness" rubs off on people by hanging around them. Please note that I have NO PROBLEM being friends or friendly with bisexual or homosexuals. I will admit that if I see someone in drag I will be weirded out a bit. Sorry, but I'm being honest here. Now mind you, I have had a friend in the past who was bi and has crossed my trust by over stepping her bounds with my rule of "don't hit on me and we're cool". I had to tell her on multiple occasions, please stop tickling me, I am not ticklish. I have lots of friends and we simply do not tickle each other. To me that is a flirtatious action and yes, I do sometimes tickle Jay. Moving on.....

I have had several professional work relationships with homosexuals. I used to work at a computer company that was owned by a homosexual and let's just say that I honestly believe that Jay and I were a minority there. (that's where we met BTW)

Do I condone their lifestyle? No, i believe it's unnatural and unbiblical. Will I protest or do anything about it? No. I look at it like a sin. I still like them as a person. To me it's the same category as a friend who is straight and having sex before marriage. Do I approve of what they are doing? No. Will I do anything about it? No. Are we all sinners? Yes.

[Chozon1]

Sometimes I genuinely feel bewildered by the obtuse nature of some posts on this site, Christian or otherwise

You're not the only one, amigo. That coin too, has two sides.

Let's try and figure out why these "annoying punks" (I think this forum fails to realize how many of the people they regularly insult are in fact on this forum) use that word the way they do. For one, I think the parent reserves the right to decide who babysits their kids, no matter what the reason may be, but this reason of all reasons once again brings me to slowly facepalming myself and creating such a severe reverberation through space and time that everything ceases to exist and in some other universe I become a dog named Frank

Would it make you feel better if I told you it was completely intentional? There are more correct words I could've used there, but they were unfriendly. I classified it as annoying because it is, and I genuinely believe "the people who use the word that way" to be incorrect in many of the ways they think, and the reason they use the word in the fashion they do. That's harsh, and I'm sorry if that hurts your feelings. And I assure you, I'm just as annoyed by this as you are when I proverbially say "shut up, freak ball".

I don't know if you all remember being a kid, but there is a vast difference between emulating what you think is "cool" at the time and, you know, becoming gay. There are a butt-ton of things that people made me think were cool that I emulated as a kid and entirely grew out of because they weren't ever a part of me as a person

I do. I loved it. But the fact is, you can't use personal experience in this matter. It's not worth much given you are not the representative of all childrens. I know people, actually know them, who grew up around smoking and swearing and drinking, and now consider those things totally OK in any light. I know people who grew up around and with homosexuals who think it's totally OK, and nothing is wrong with it. And that counts just as important in this argument as whether or not someone actually changed their sexual preferences.

I had a lot of opportunities and influences that could've made me gay and a lot of pressure (like bullies convincing me that I was) to be gay. I didn't become gay, because I'm not gay. This is truly an incredibly simplistic thing. Yeah, maybe sometimes people realize later in life that they prefer relationships with the same sex, but I'd hazard a guess that those feelings have been deeply repressed for a very long time. You can blame "peer pressure" for those feelings being planted, but you'd be fundamentally wrong. If you're arguing that peer pressure causes homosexuality, then it has to go the other way, and I guarantee you that there is far more peer pressure in a kid's life telling them to not be gay. The logic isn't sound and it gives way entirely to paranoia and therefore, you have homophobia

CK, you cannot even stand on stone with your own arguments. "Hazard a guess" cannot be followed by "you'd be fundamentally wrong", and "guarantee". Those things...you cannot give me a guarantee unless you've talked to every homosexual person out there. If you have, I'll listen and change my belief pants. You may very well be correct. But you'd also have to discount the dozens (hundreds, perhaps) of "I was 37 and married and suddenly realized I'm gay" stories out there, unless every one of them included the blurb "I wanted this as a kid, but it was repressed". And again, just because you didn't give in to peer pressure, doesn't mean no one does. I didn't give in to the compulsion to puff on a cigarette, but my sister did.

I get that people think homosexuality is wrong and there's not much I can do about that but at the very least please try and grasp this notion. People will be gay whether they think it's normal or not. You can continue going around saying "oh I hate your sin but I love you as a person, but stay away from my children, I don't want you rubbing off on them" or you can just accept that your kid is going to meet a lot of openly gay people in the coming years and chances are they're already interacting with druggies, abusers, killers, etc. God knows I did growing up and I never knew it

And the only thing I can say here is...and? I hope that is not rude, but it's hte only response I can think of. A lot of kids grow up to be druggies, abusers, killers, ETC based upon their environment and who they hang out with. Just because you haven't, doesn't mean no one does. I'd actually consider those bad examples. And I seem to remember you being fairly pro-marijuana.

My mom is horrified at the notion of me being excellent friends with a gay person. I ask her how she feels about the fact that probably every single one of my friends, Christian or not, either gets drunk, looks at porn, sleeps around, cusses like a badger, or all of those things at once. She says I shouldn't be friends with any of those people. Turns out I wouldn't have any friends at all. And I'd have to disown more than half of my family.

It happens. It hurts. I tend to side with your mom, since the people you hang out with influence who you are as a person. No one seems to want to accept that nowadays, but it's incredibly true. It can be patently proven. through my own experiences (which is a bad indicator, and you can give me a hand slap), and through the experiences of others.

I love pretty much everyone I've met that stands by the "hate the sin, love the sinner" argument, but I will never, ever find a measure of legitimacy to it in regards to homosexuality, because nobody who applies to it lives it positively because as it turns out, you are what you do, and gay people sleep with gay people, so that roundabout theory brings you consistently back to hating gay people. When you get down to the wire, there is always discrimination involved, whether in the form of a mother choosing to not let a gay person babysit their kids or in the form of someone not being friends with a gay person.

Amigo, who is to say some discrimination is wrong? Another "evil" concept in the modern world, but I think it's OK, to an extent. Be kind to people, be a friend, but watch yourself carefully when you hang with them. If you want to call that discrimination, well...it happens. For that matter, personal experience doesn't apply here either. Or at least, your logic is flawed. If I meet a homosexual on the street, I treat them like any other person I happen to walk by. In fact, I sort of go out of my way to be kind to them (which is, btw, discrimination) to overcome my own "prejudice". Yet I categorically know that their way of life is a sin, and according to Romans, actually happens in society because of the sin within it. For the rest, parents should have the right to dictate who their kid hangs out with, at least until a certain age. It may chafe you, but don't go all "THEY'RE SO DISCRIMINATIN". Doesn't help anything, because then the parents push harder.

But to you guys I'm an annoying punk, and what I say will only continue to be lost in what is, if I may frankly and respectfully say, the formidable ego and imperceptible identity of the religious body. So many people here and in my own daily life really know how to forgo constructive arguments in favor of tossing the proverbial tomato at people whom you have generally classified as "persecutors" and "tightwads" because of those bunches that fulfill those titles. I and many others like me may be accusing you of practicing hate, but I'm certainly not defining you with that or allowing it to affect what is largely a very positive relationship with most of you. What I find infinitely more obstructive to a positive relationship is the general "shut up, freak ball" attitude and once again the lack of really pursuing the reasoning and meaning behind certain people's actions and choices

If that's true, why bother posting? No mon frere, you know, at least a small part of you knows, that someone will listen. Otherwise, you'd not have wasted the finger strength to type your wall of text. And who says I'm defining you by your annoying punkness? Do you define me by my part in the "formidable ego and imperceptible identity of the religious body"? To me, you're CK. A somewhat crazy, rather deep artsy type who has a heart of gold. If I have any reason for using "annoying punk" it's so I can easily look past that portion of your beliefs to who you present yourself as on CCGR. If you'd like me to slap a label across your face and only see you as that, well...I have a problem with that. I believe you're wrong, well and truly. It happens.

Bet you $5 someone wants to tell me that if I get so bothered by these Christian values then I should just leave

I'll take that bet, captain.

[ArcticFox]

@CK: What does any of that have to do with the popular over-use of the term "homophobe?"

@Chozon: You continue to rock.

[ArchAngel]

CK: You rock.

[ChickenSoup]

CK:I was kind of tracking you until

But to you guys I'm an annoying punk, and what I say will only continue to be lost in what is, if I may frankly and respectfully say, the formidable ego and imperceptible identity of the religious body. So many people here and in my own daily life really know how to forgo constructive arguments in favor of tossing the proverbial tomato at people whom you have generally classified as "persecutors" and "tightwads" because of those bunches that fulfill those titles. I and many others like me may be accusing you of practicing hate, but I'm certainly not defining you with that or allowing it to affect what is largely a very positive relationship with most of you. What I find infinitely more obstructive to a positive relationship is the general "shut up, freak ball" attitude and once again the lack of really pursuing the reasoning and meaning behind certain people's actions and choices

I am not sure who exactly gave you the impression that you were a freak ball but this was the most overly defensive post I've seen in quite a while. There's the whole image of a religious body with a formidable ego that is, even if mostly accurate for American Christianity, not a statement that can cover everyone, especially on this site.

For all I'm kind of "eerrggghhhhh errrrmmmm ok" at my mom for the whole point of the OP, I still respect her beliefs. I'm kind of tired of eye-rolling at people who will actually take a stand for something. She doesn't love the particular person in question any less and doesn't shun that person in the least.

She just takes issue with the sin. She doesn't think she's perfect either, and wouldn't want her kids babysat by people actively and openly sinning in any other ways (gossip, cheating, whatever). I can respect that. If that makes my family a repressed cluster of homophobes, I really couldn't care less what you think of me. Especially since college, I have several gay friends that I don't treat any differently than any of my other friends. I don't allow myself the pride of thinking that I'm so awesome that they'll all hit on me and try to turn me gay or something, just like most girls aren't going to actively seduce me. That doesn't mean I agree with their lifestyle. If that makes me some kind of egotistical homophobe, I can't fathom the depths of your victim complex.

[ArchAngel]

doesn't shun that person in the least.

That's exactly what's happening here. Clearly, there's an issue here with homosexuality vs most other sins. Sure, we're "all sinners," but she drew a pretty specific line when she says they shouldn't babysit. I don't like criticizing someone who's not here or who is family to those who are, but it's pretty clear what it is.

As for allegations of homophobia? While it's definition ranges, I generally like to keep it towards people who display pretty extreme stances, especially those masking latent homosexual desires themselves. For less sever cases, I'm willing to keep a more neural "anti-homosexuality" moniker. Homophobia does call to some deeply seating emotional issues.
Shortly put, you're not homophobic, just wrong.

[epsons]

this is all much too vitriolic for the nonsense section... I feel like I've been tricked into the Spiritual Matters forum.

[ChickenSoup]

doesn't shun that person in the least.

That's exactly what's happening here. Clearly, there's an issue here with homosexuality vs most other sins. Sure, we're "all sinners," but she drew a pretty specific line when she says they shouldn't babysit. I don't like criticizing someone who's not here or who is family to those who are, but it's pretty clear what it is.

Did you miss the part about her not having the open sinners babysit either? Or are you just ramming the "you guys are all homophobes" really hard?

Note that I say open. I don't mean to say that she thinks that it's possible for someone to be perfect... What I mean is she doesn't want someone who would take what we believe the Bible says and say "oh, well, this is fine" and allow them to be in a position of influence over children.

I'm not saying I'm 100% in agreement with her, but I think there's just as much perceived persecution as actual homophobia.

[ohnolookout]

this is all much too vitriolic for the nonsense section... I feel like I've been tricked into the Spiritual Matters forum.

You are now my favorite person.

[ArchAngel]

Did you miss the part about her not having the open sinners babysit either? Or are you just ramming the "you guys are all homophobes" really hard?

Yes, I did miss that part. Did you miss the part where I clarified on homophobia?

[ohnolookout]

sigh

[Pheonix]

sigh