Christ Centered Gamer

fathom123 wrote:Yea, It's understandable that you want to expose something shady going on. At the same time, I would hate this forum to be the forum that looks as though it thinks its better than others by continually posting why other forums are bad, instead of being the example that these other forums should have been in the first place. I do believe that we should discuss these things but I think it would be better for us and the gaming community in general if we simply reflect the better standard. Turn the other cheek and all that I guess.

Am I off in this?

No you aren't.

fathom123 wrote:Yea, It's understandable that you want to expose something shady going on. At the same time, I would hate this forum to be the forum that looks as though it thinks its better than others by continually posting why other forums are bad, instead of being the example that these other forums should have been in the first place. I do believe that we should discuss these things but I think it would be better for us and the gaming community in general if we simply reflect the better standard. Turn the other cheek and all that I guess.

Am I off in this?

You aren't off one bit. But you are, I think, missing what's happening here because you don't have the necessary context.

That said, this is indicative of repeated behavior from a proclaimed Christian who has in the past participated in a lot of division on these forums. I see that you joined in June, and so you wouldn't have that history here.

How many cheeks are there to turn before someone says something?

We weren't making fun of his magazine (I easily could, but I didn't). He's been spoken to by multiple people about past behavior, as outlined in the New Testament, and nothing has changed. There haven't been apologies, or attempts to change behavior. There's just been more anger and sedition, and blame placed on others.

I won't lie: he and I have a history (and as you can see, I wasn't the only one who had a history with him), which is partially why I watched what I said in the previous thread. That history caused him to stop coming around after we had a confrontation. I did not handle that confrontation in the way that I should have, especially given the fact that I am a former admin on this site.

He is no longer actively using these forums. I suspect he lurks quite a bit. That shouldn't stop anyone from saying that he was actively attempting to deceive on a public forum that was not associated with this one. In his much self-lauded role as "editor" of Family Friendly Gaming, he has a responsibility to respond to the public in a professional manner. As a Christian, his responsibility in that matter is more significant, particularly because he is not only representing his publication, he's representing his faith. He's representing all of us to Gamefaqs.

Somehow, we're supposed to be okay with this.

I understand that the correct thing to do is to turn the other cheek. But it's more than that. He should be confronted, once more. And if he doesn't listen, he should be confronted in front of others. And if that doesn't work, what does the Bible say?

Matthew 18:17: "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector."

Paul wrote in Galatians that we should restore others who commit a transgression against us, and further that we should bear one another's burdens. And that's all correct. But, according to what's said in Matthew, there is no place for someone who will not change despite repeated attempts to confront him on behavior.

I've always struggled with being abrasive online. I'm a pretty laid back, easy going guy in real life (as more than one of you can attest to), but when I get involved in an argument, I seem to get angry. And usually, it's not the case that I'm actually angry; I feel a ton, and I'm pretty passionate, and that can come off as abrasive and blunt. That's not who I am. I'm also proud. I've had some differences with people on this board where I refused to apologize for months. It wasn't because I didn't know I was part of the problem; it's because I was too proud to say that I was sorry. It's something that I'm constantly working on. One of my coworkers told me the other day that she had avoided speaking to me for something like eight months because she thought I was a jerk. Then, we started talking... and she realized that wasn't the case.

I also frequently struggle with my ego. I'm a good writer. I know I'm a good writer. I know I'm better than the vast majority of people. But when editing, when writing, when discussing writing, that knowledge can come off as conceited and egotistical when it is simply, as one famous author or another said, owning my ability. Maybe that's not the best way to go about it. I don't tend to say, "Yeah, my new piece is going to really blow people away." I'm not like that. But given the chance, I will say, "Yeah, I'm a writer. And I'm good." I want no illusions on that front. It's a vital thing about me, and too many people have written me off too quickly.

All of that said, those are things that I struggle with. And I listen to people when they call me on them, or say that I go too far. I may ask for more detail, and that may come off as blunt or confrontational when someone comes to me in love and friendship. However, my style is to directly ask questions, and directly state things; I don't tend to like to beat around the bush with people, though paradoxically I'm a talker and will go on long tangents about things only partially related to the subject at hand.

And none of this is to say that I'm better than Paul, but instead to say that this is how I do it, and this is how I was trained to handle these sorts of discussions, through my family and through churches that were influential in my life. I don't know his experience, and I don't know yours. What I do know is that the Bible outlines confrontations with other believers in very specific ways, and to the best of my knowledge those have been followed on this site and with its members. We are a fellowship. This is how things are supposed to be done.

What, then, makes it inappropriate to regard his actions thus as we would a Gentile or tax collector?

EDIT:

ArchAngel wrote:Drew, If you feel like getting it off your chest, my PM box is wide open for you.

Thanks. I may take you up on that.

This entire situation brings me back to a point I repeatedly try to make. We as Christians are bizarrely reclined from dealing with the garbage in our own fellowship. We leave it there for others to deal with and finally, when others get mad and try to deal with it, we think we're being picked on or antagonized. We don't take responsibility. I'm all for being the standard and turning the other cheek, but I've been at the receiving end of Christian leniency for far too much of my life, and I'm tired of it.

FFG is a liar. I don't think anyone can deny that. He has a history here that frankly baffles me. I've never seen so much patience with someone so borderline nuts. The guy was just itching to spread inflammatory conspiracy and racism and God knows what else all the time. No one, and I mean no one, has chafed more people on this site than that guy. I mean, Drew's struggled with being harsh (as he said and, it should be noted, apologizes for, unlike FFG) and you might say he didn't help the situation. You may have a point, but he was at the receiving end of FFG's insanity and also the only one who was trying to deal with the guy. I admire him for that, and I can respect him for continuing to try and write FFG off. He needs to be written off. We just shouldn't be okay with this guy gallivanting around saying the crap he says. I realize there are a lot of conservative folks here, and that's not what I'm addressing. I'm addressing the fact that Bury lies, slanders and inflames every chance he can get under the guise of "helping Christians find family friendly games."

Believe me, I'd ignore him, I would ignore him, if not for how comfortable people seem to be with him. And I don't mean non-Christians, I mean Christians. If he wants to talk things through, if he wants to be open to dealing with stuff, I'm for that. But the dude is one of the most stubborn, unwavering dudes I've ever seen, and he will only insist on causing drama wherever he goes. I don't know why, but he's just like that.

I don't mean to suggest that we should slander him or boycott him in the streets or whatever else. But I do think we should shamelessly state our feelings on the matter and allow ourselves to become distanced from the man. I think it should be clear that we don't support the site or the guy. Because if we don't, everyone else is going to have some severe misunderstandings about Christianity. We're only hurting ourselves by not taking a stand.

That... is just how I feel about it. I'm glad he's gone, and I'm not jumping at the chance to further insult him. I just think it's a good chance to deal with the fact that Christians seem to have a very hard time managing people in our faith who clearly mess about.

ArchAngel wrote:I don't mean to continue what was in the last topic... but if those multiple users was WyldCard and FFG....

Completely different people brought it to my attention.

You're right Drew, I don't have history and you and CK have a point. We do need to be held accountable for our actions as believers and we shouldn't act in any way that is not glorifying to the Lord so long as our attempts to hold said individuals accountable receive it as such. Openly stating how you feel about his actions on the forums do allow others to understand where he may be misleading them. If you are after his correction and genuinely care about his walk with the Lord and witness to others then wouldn't it be better to approach him in a more intimate manner?

You (Drew) and a few other who know and understand him (CK and others who he has history with) send him a couple of emails and try to get an active dialogue going. I would say keep CCGR in the loop about what is going on and what methods you are using to try and bring this brother to restoration. If he does turn out to be a wolf in sheep's clothing who will unfortunately misrepresent Christ and refuses any and all council that is given out of love, then (as a unified front with the owner of the forum in agreement) on the public forums make an announcement about what you've learned. State all actions taken that lead you to your conclusion and share the unfortunate truth that you and others can stand by.

The thing is you may be angry but as Christians, like it or not, he is family. Family takes care of their own. If he is secretly showing himself to be otherwise then out him in a tasteful but effective manner. This keeps you from just looking like a person who has been hurt and is simply retaliating instead of walking in forgiveness and living a life that reflects the love and unity found in the body of Christ.

As much as accountability is important, forgiveness is equally if not of greater importance.

Matthew 18:21-35 If you honestly want accountability and want to do it right, it must be done in a way that can be received by those reading it and irrefutable by those who are being accused and found guilty. In the end, even after exposure (as the above scripture references) you must release him in your own heart and hold him forgiven. Think of all that you have been forgiven of and imagine having all of that back on your head simply because you can't release him. I know it would kill me, all that I have done and continue to do.

Again, if I'm off I'm open to better understanding for sure.

fathom123 wrote:You (Drew) and a few other who know and understand him (CK and others who he has history with) send him a couple of emails and try to get an active dialogue going. I would say keep CCGR in the loop about what is going on and what methods you are using to try and bring this brother to restoration.

I too have been posting here quite a while (8 years?), and I'd say your suggestion is a wise one if I hadn't seen the guy repeatedly deflect anything even close to criticism. It's really a pearls before swine situation. I'd say the best course of action is for you Christians to denounce his actions, forgive the guy, and move on. But let's keep in mind that forgiveness does not entail being a doormat.

fathom123 wrote:You're right Drew, I don't have history and you and CK have a point. We do need to be held accountable for our actions as believers and we shouldn't act in any way that is not glorifying to the Lord so long as our attempts to hold said individuals accountable receive it as such. Openly stating how you feel about his actions on the forums do allow others to understand where he may be misleading them. If you are after his correction and genuinely care about his walk with the Lord and witness to others then wouldn't it be better to approach him in a more intimate manner?

That has been done (as I said before), but not by me.

You (Drew) and a few other who know and understand him (CK and others who he has history with) send him a couple of emails and try to get an active dialogue going. I would say keep CCGR in the loop about what is going on and what methods you are using to try and bring this brother to restoration. If he does turn out to be a wolf in sheep's clothing who will unfortunately misrepresent Christ and refuses any and all council that is given out of love, then (as a unified front with the owner of the forum in agreement) on the public forums make an announcement about what you've learned. State all actions taken that lead you to your conclusion and share the unfortunate truth that you and others can stand by.

I don't know him beyond what he's said and done on this site, and how he's treated me.

Here, you're getting into some pretty nasty old wounds that deal significantly with how he's treated me in the past. I'm going to say this bluntly, because I'm losing patience with this: you don't understand what you're talking about. Move on.

The thing is you may be angry but as Christians, like it or not, he is family. Family takes care of their own. If he is secretly showing himself to be otherwise then out him in a tasteful but effective manner. This keeps you from just looking like a person who has been hurt and is simply retaliating instead of walking in forgiveness and living a life that reflects the love and unity found in the body of Christ.

I'm angry as a person, first. He's not my family, and I don't consider him a brother in Christ, so far is the schism between the way we believe. At this point, I'm past even retaliating. I feel personally slighted, and I've tried to resolve it, over and over again. I don't think there's much use in continuing.

As much as accountability is important, forgiveness is equally if not of greater importance.

I've forgiven him, to the extent that I feel I can. And only that through God.

If you honestly want accountability and want to do it right, it must be done in a way that can be received by those reading it and irrefutable by those who are being accused and found guilty. In the end, even after exposure (as the above scripture references) you must release him in your own heart and hold him forgiven. Think of all that you have been forgiven of and imagine having all of that back on your head simply because you can't release him. I know it would kill me, all that I have done and continue to do.

I'm beginning to seriously doubt that you read my post.

I did cover all of that previously. I understand that I asked how many times am I to turn the cheek, but I did see that verse.

Specifically, though, I was dealing with bringing problems to a fellow believer (which you strangely encouraged me to do, and which has already been done).

I'm sorry, but if we're going to walk in circles like this then I can't be part of this topic.

EDIT:

I should note that I agree completely with Bruce and CK.

fathom123 wrote: If you honestly want accountability and want to do it right, it must be done in a way that can be received by those reading it and irrefutable by those who are being accused and found guilty. In the end, even after exposure (as the above scripture references) you must release him in your own heart and hold him forgiven. Think of all that you have been forgiven of and imagine having all of that back on your head simply because you can't release him. I know it would kill me, all that I have done and continue to do.

Again, if I'm off I'm open to better understanding for sure.

been there done that

I'm going to be non-confrontational, but like Drew, I'm going to be blunt, because blunt is more clear. I do ask however, that you read it and imagine me speaking in a gentle tone of voice. This isn't a rant, it's just me sharing some thoughts on this.

First of all, let it be known that I consider Paul to be a friend. He and I disagree on many things, but we know what each others' flaws are and have found a way to work around them. So there it is. If anyone reading this post doesn't like what I'm going to say then by all means, chalk it up to my bias and move on because I really really do not want to argue about this. Unless asked a direct question I don't plan to reply to this thread further, so I offer you folks the last word, although I do think this thread should be locked soon.

Let me also say that I don't have any personal issues with anybody in this thread. Drew and I have clashed as well but I believe that hatchet to be buried. Let it remain so. I've also developed a lot of respect for some of the guys here so let that reinforce my statement that I do not want an argument here.

But some things need to be pointed out. It is very, very, seductively, amazingly easy to get caught up in the momentum of a group beating up on an individual. I don't care how justified it may seem, but when you call someone a liar outright you've crossed a line from honest, academic criticism to personal attacks. This forum is supposed to have a rule that says respect people. You either follow it or you don't. CK, you outright called someone a liar. Is that consistent with the forum rules about respect? Would it be more okay or less okay if Paul were still actively posting here?

It's true that Paul doesn't post here anymore. So... what's the point of this thread? What's the point of the bashfest that went on in the last one? What's the goal? I'm not asking rhetorically, I'm being serious. Drew, why revive this by starting a new thread? Why wasn't it better to just let it go?

I'm seriously asking, because a lot of this topic has been little more than a bunch of backbiting. I don't know if that was the intent, but that's what it's become. Even when Fathom came in and tried to use a conciliatory tone he got jumped on. Why? Did he deserve to be punished for trying to find a peaceful approach?

Understand me, my friends. A guy (Fathom) got smacked down on a Christian website in a Christian form by a couple of fellow Christians, and the most gentle response came from a man who doesn't even identify himself as a Christian anymore.

Drew, you said you were angry as a person. Okay. That's how you feel. Got it. But then right after that you said you've forgiven Paul. Brother, I say this gently and from my own experience... If you're still angry, then you haven't forgiven him (yet.) Or, if you truly have forgiven as best you can, then there's no reason to rehash this. Once we forgive, it's got to go away or it isn't real forgiveness.

I was one of the ones who approached ccgr about the previous thread, and it was because of this. I don't defend Paul because I think he can't take it or because he isn't capable of defending himself if he chooses to. It's because I really like the idea that this site represents, and a thread whose purpose is to stomp on someone, anyone, can't be consistent with a Christian message... however justified people may think it is. It was a thread that turned into a group bashfest against an individual who wasn't here (admittedly, by his own choice) to defend himself. But was it necessary? Has the Christian gaming community benefited from it? Do you guys feel like this has been an uplifting and positive use of your time and energy? Would it have been more justifiable if he'd responded himself? What would the thread have looked like then?

Again, not a rhetorical question, but one that I would ask you each to put to yourselves.

As I said I have no personal problem with anyone here, and I hope this response hasn't caused any. But if it did, well, it will make me sad, but I had to speak.

I also ask that this thread be locked, unless there's some potential positive outcome that I'm not seeing.

I might just lock this,
I just want to make sure of something first.
I am not going to say names, but do some of you guys hold a grudge against Family Friendly gaming?
Honestly it sounds like it, so I ask that you read this,

Mark 11:25 But when you are praying, first forgive anyone you are holding a grudge against, so that your Father in heaven will forgive your sins, too."

Or as the New King James Version says it,

Mar 11:25 "And whenever you stand praying, if you have anything against anyone, forgive him, that your Father in heaven may also forgive you your trespasses.

Mar 11:26 "But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father in heaven forgive your trespasses."

Well, I will give this thread a little chance,
though that does not mean the other moderators or Admins have to.

As a lowly exmod, I'd like to put my vote in for the thread not being locked. This is good; most of our arguments hinge over some abstract concept or another, but here we have an actual issue directly involving our members. Sure, it isn't sunshine, rainbows and pictures of Karen Gillian, but it's real. It won't go away with another thread lock, and we have a chance to get our hands deep into it. It's not pleasant, but the the most worthwhile things are paid for in sweat, tears, and blood. This holds the opportunity for us to learn.

Thank you, JOJ650s, for giving this thread a little chance. Hopefully, we can keep this at least moderately civil (this probably meant for me most of all).

And CCGR, I was making an ill-conceited joke. I don't think you'd fall for that.

On the note for us forgiving him, do we have to? I mean, are we required to forgive someone who has not asked for it? Does God? (this might make the whole heaven/hell discussion a bit more interesting).
I don't mean to derail this thread, but I found this question pertinent. Many of us have issues with FFG because how he shuts down criticism and his perceived lack of humility (I'm qualifying this since I can't prove one way or another if this is the case). He never asked for our forgiveness, and I would assume he'd feel insulted at the notion that we are "forgiving him" for something that he doesn't even think is wrong.

EDIT: just re-read the verse you posted, JOJ. And it's also been pointed out that forgiveness is for the benefit of the one doing the forgiveness.

On one level I can see what ArcticFox is saying about how calling someone a liar crosses the line into personal insults. On the other hand, when you hold yourself out as an arbiter of morality in the media, then your character is relevant. His practice of praising his own site under the guise of an alias goes back at least a year. Whether you call him a liar or just someone who has a persistent habit of telling lies, the conclusion is the same. Due to the character he has demonstrated, he is not credible as a critic of morality in games.

Hey guys im posting on the go so I will keep it brief.

I have no history with you guys, ffg, or this site in general. My intention was not to put my nose where it doesn't belong but honestly if this was a situation I was dealing with in my own church, I would have answered the same. Just unbias advice is all. If its not well received then please ignore it, the intention was not to add to the problem.

Thanks

ArcticFox wrote:I'm going to be non-confrontational, but like Drew, I'm going to be blunt, because blunt is more clear. I do ask however, that you read it and imagine me speaking in a gentle tone of voice. This isn't a rant, it's just me sharing some thoughts on this.

First of all, let it be known that I consider Paul to be a friend. He and I disagree on many things, but we know what each others' flaws are and have found a way to work around them. So there it is. If anyone reading this post doesn't like what I'm going to say then by all means, chalk it up to my bias and move on because I really really do not want to argue about this. Unless asked a direct question I don't plan to reply to this thread further, so I offer you folks the last word, although I do think this thread should be locked soon.

Let me also say that I don't have any personal issues with anybody in this thread. Drew and I have clashed as well but I believe that hatchet to be buried. Let it remain so. I've also developed a lot of respect for some of the guys here so let that reinforce my statement that I do not want an argument here.

But some things need to be pointed out. It is very, very, seductively, amazingly easy to get caught up in the momentum of a group beating up on an individual. I don't care how justified it may seem, but when you call someone a liar outright you've crossed a line from honest, academic criticism to personal attacks. This forum is supposed to have a rule that says respect people. You either follow it or you don't. CK, you outright called someone a liar. Is that consistent with the forum rules about respect? Would it be more okay or less okay if Paul were still actively posting here?

It's true that Paul doesn't post here anymore. So... what's the point of this thread? What's the point of the bashfest that went on in the last one? What's the goal? I'm not asking rhetorically, I'm being serious. Drew, why revive this by starting a new thread? Why wasn't it better to just let it go?

I'm seriously asking, because a lot of this topic has been little more than a bunch of backbiting. I don't know if that was the intent, but that's what it's become. Even when Fathom came in and tried to use a conciliatory tone he got jumped on. Why? Did he deserve to be punished for trying to find a peaceful approach?

Understand me, my friends. A guy (Fathom) got smacked down on a Christian website in a Christian form by a couple of fellow Christians, and the most gentle response came from a man who doesn't even identify himself as a Christian anymore.

Drew, you said you were angry as a person. Okay. That's how you feel. Got it. But then right after that you said you've forgiven Paul. Brother, I say this gently and from my own experience... If you're still angry, then you haven't forgiven him (yet.) Or, if you truly have forgiven as best you can, then there's no reason to rehash this. Once we forgive, it's got to go away or it isn't real forgiveness.

I was one of the ones who approached ccgr about the previous thread, and it was because of this. I don't defend Paul because I think he can't take it or because he isn't capable of defending himself if he chooses to. It's because I really like the idea that this site represents, and a thread whose purpose is to stomp on someone, anyone, can't be consistent with a Christian message... however justified people may think it is. It was a thread that turned into a group bashfest against an individual who wasn't here (admittedly, by his own choice) to defend himself. But was it necessary? Has the Christian gaming community benefited from it? Do you guys feel like this has been an uplifting and positive use of your time and energy? Would it have been more justifiable if he'd responded himself? What would the thread have looked like then?

Again, not a rhetorical question, but one that I would ask you each to put to yourselves.

As I said I have no personal problem with anyone here, and I hope this response hasn't caused any. But if it did, well, it will make me sad, but I had to speak.

I also ask that this thread be locked, unless there's some potential positive outcome that I'm not seeing.

Chris, you're right on a ton of points there.

My intention with this thread was not to bash Paul. I do believe that there were things that occurred in that Gamefaqs thread that should be discussed about, and I think it's possible for constructive discussion about those things. I don't necessarily condone calling Paul a liar (Lord knows I've been on the receiving end of that one way too many times when it wasn't warranted), but I do see what CK was doing there.

I do think what Paul did and has been doing is dishonest. I think he should be called on it. I do not believe I am the right person to do this, nor do I think that most of the people on this site are the ones to do this.

Truthseeker wrote:On one level I can see what ArcticFox is saying about how calling someone a liar crosses the line into personal insults. On the other hand, when you hold yourself out as an arbiter of morality in the media, then your character is relevant. His practice of praising his own site under the guise of an alias goes back at least a year. Whether you call him a liar or just someone who has a persistent habit of telling lies, the conclusion is the same. Due to the character he has demonstrated, he is not credible as a critic of morality in games.

I also agree with most of this.

What would you do if the pastor of your church - or a leader, an elder - did the same thing?

Paul has positioned himself as a Christian leader because of his publication. His actions should at least be spoken about. Maybe one of us should take action by confronting him personally about in, out of love. I don't know. What I do know is that CK's point above was strongly worded because he felt that most are giving Paul a pass, and in that, I truly do agree: he doesn't get a pass. That doesn't mean that he shouldn't be spoken to.

fathom123 wrote:Hey guys im posting on the go so I will keep it brief.

I have no history with you guys, ffg, or this site in general. My intention was not to put my nose where it doesn't belong but honestly if this was a situation I was dealing with in my own church, I would have answered the same. Just unbias advice is all. If its not well received then please ignore it, the intention was not to add to the problem.

Thanks

I wasn't trying to be short with you, and I'm sorry that it seemed I was.

You didn't add to the problem. With the current situation, you're right: he should be spoken to. With previous situations, he has been, and there hasn't been a change.

That said, I don't see why it wouldn't be wise to at least try to see if he can be moved.

I've observed some of the arguments people here have had with FFG. I agree that he is acting dishonestly, and that he has refused to admit this in the past. However, I see what JOJ is saying. We may hold grudges against him (knowingly or not). He may feel the same about us.

ArcticFox wrote:I'm going to be non-confrontational, but like Drew, I'm going to be blunt, because blunt is more clear. I do ask however, that you read it and imagine me speaking in a gentle tone of voice. This isn't a rant, it's just me sharing some thoughts on this.

I read this twice, and it's good that you said this. Many of the posts on this thread, I assume, are written the same way. However, as I read your post, it got harder and harder to read it like that. I had to stop and think. I wonder if we have read FFG's posts like this, or if FFG has read ours this way.


Would it be a good idea to meet him IRL? Say AF or Arch or Drew (or a combination, or others) met him in real life. What would happen if they repeated a discussion that has happened here aloud? Would it go the same direction? Would it be productive? This is just hypothetical, but it got me thinking.

Drewsov wrote:That said, I don't see why it wouldn't be wise to at least try to see if he can be moved.