I see what you're saying. My read on it is that we may be getting a different interpretation of the use of "eternal" here. From what I gather from your post (and please correct me if I'm wrong) you're saying that the term "eternal" implies that it's locked in, indelible, can't be changed or removed. Let's take a look at the verses you cited.Well, let's say that we didn't have salvation forever and that we could lose it by doing something. Well, I say that would go against the reason that Jesus came to die in the first place. He came so that we might have ETERNAL (notice that eternal means everlasting, neverending, forever) life, 'and have it abundantly.' (John 10:10) Jesus even said that he who believes in Him (Jesus) would have Eternal Life, (John 3:15,16,36, 5:24, 6:40,47) now if eternal mean forever, neverending and everlasting, then how could we lose something that is forever? How could we lose something of our soul, that never ends? That lasts forever?
That's only if we accept the interpretation that says the gift of everlasting life is irrevocable. For me personally, I don't find that to be very logical. It's like saying a person can convert, be baptized, and then go on to life a life of evil and indulgence, free of any eternal repercussions.Plus, if we say that we can lose eternal salvation, and Jesus says we can't, then we contradict what Jesus is saying. And who is more in the right, Jesus? or us? We are calling Jesus (the PERFECT Lamb of God) a liar, we are saying He is wrong, we are saying that we know more about salvation and matters of the soul than He does, the very person who died and made the idea of salvation possible. My apologies if I am being harsh, but, come on, we'd be calling Jesus a liar, the only Being who is perfect being called imperfect by those who are the most evil.
I don't want to prove you wrong. I just like friendly debate. We all have to do the best we can with our understanding of God's will in our lives. I think we can agree that we're meant to make a firm commitment to follow Jesus Christ and live according to His will to the very best of our ability, throughout our life. That makes this topic a fun academic discussion, but shouldn't be a hindrance to our living the Gospel, no matter which side one is on.So, prove me wrong...
Yeah not gonna lie, I think that would be a fantastic motive to resume the missions to the moon...Also, the idea of the moon being filled with fondant and strawberry jam sounds amazing. I might try to prove that one day.
Well that is true, but are you absolutely certain that eternal salvation begins with conversion, as opposed to a life successfully lived faithfully to the end?Yes, yes, yes, by Eternal I do mean locked in and unchangeable, but that's the idea of the word Eternal, or Forever, or Everlasting, it does not end, if it wasn't forever it wouldn't be eternal, if it wasn't unchangeable it wouldn't be eternal, if it wasn't everlasting it wouldn't be eternal.
I didn't say it, it's in the Scriptures. I'm not sure why the Bible would give instructions on how to SHED one's salvation, but it does warn us that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, for example, is an unpardonable sin in Mark 3:28-30You say that if Jesus is the way in, He is the way out, so, if a Christian suddenly decides he doesn't want to go to heaven and will take his chances without Jesus, what does he have to do to get rid of his salvation? Where in the Bible does it give us instructions on getting out of salvation and heaven?
I introduced that in support of my comments about Jesus being the Judge. I get to cite verses too, don't I?Also, I did not use john 5:22 as a verse.
So a person can be forced into Heaven against his/her will?I didn't say people could not turn away from God or Jesus or the Bible, I simply state that they cannot lose their salvation. We see people turn away from God all the time, we see rejection of Jesus all over the world and media, anyone can reject or turn away from God or Jesus. But once you're saved, you're always saved.
Well that much is true, but again, OSAS suggests that a person can be taken up into Heaven even if they don't want to be.Sure a person could be saved and go on sinning doing whatever he/she wants. I'm sure it happens more often than we think. While they are saved forever, they won't get much for rewards I heaven, the Bible states that our obedience and works builds up treasures for us in heaven, the more obedient we are to God the more He will reward us. That is not to say that our obedience or works saves us, it does not, we are only saved by putting our faith in Jesus Christ. Not by works, not by baptism, not by prayer.
I don't agree that God punishes people on earth, at least not in a consistent manner. Tell me Hugh Hefner is suffering from disciplinary action from God. Tell me that every single person who has a life of suffering and pain deserved it. That's the problem, isn't it? It isn't really discipline if it isn't consistent. Sometimes good people suffer and bad people don't.Also, God is not above punishing His children, He is our Father, He loves us like a father, but also like a father, He needs to discipline His children should they go astray, so, if a Christian is saved and then realizes that this is some sort of 'get-out-of-hell free' card and decides to go on living his/her life as before, God will bring judgement upon that person in his/her earthly life. Now, when that person gets to heaven, God will lovingly and happily welcome him/her to heaven with open arms. But while he/she is on earth God will be trying to push him/her towards the right path, and if it takes punishment for his/her sins, so be it. Just as a father needs to discipline his children for doing wrong things, so does God.
I looked at them, and they're all verses that reference Salvation. Not sure how they apply to the specific topic at hand however. Might you be willing to elaborate a bit?I would encourage you to look at these verses.
Eph. 1:3, 2:6, 4:30
1 Cor. 3:10-15
1 Thess. 1:9,10, 5:8-10
1 Pet. 1:5
I think he could certainly provide some unique input in this debate because of that, too! What do you think, ArchAngel? How would you feel about being a former Christian and learning (perhaps after you die) that, even after turning away and no longer believing, you're going to heaven anyway? If the OSAS theory is valid, that is. Or, alternatively, what would you think of a deity that determines your afterlife regardless of what you desire, or what your behavior would entail?ArchAngel is a non-believer
Beginning with John 10: 9,10
9 I am the door; by Me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
10 The thief cometh not but to steal and to kill and to destroy. I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
So here the Savior is comparing Himself to a door, which is the means by which someone can enter and find salvation. Notice however, He doesn't just say He's the way in... He's also the way out. This makes sense, because He will be the Judge of our eternal soul, and could very well find us unworthy.
Take a look at another parable, the one of the sower in Luke 8
Luke 8:5 - 8
5 A sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it.
6 And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture.
7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprang up with it, and choked it.
8 And other fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold. And when he had said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
He goes on to explain the symbolism in the verses that follow. The seeds that spring up sometimes wither even after they begin to grow.
There's a ton of parables that further expand on this, and I'd invite you to check it out. The Prodigal Son is a good one with a happy ending. Note in that story how the returned son is welcomed back because he returned on his own, and not from any previous guarantees.
Hey there's no need to apologize. We do this for the fun of it when time permits.My apologies for taking so long to reply, I was gone on a trip.
Certainly. In fact, The Savior even goes on to explain the meaning, in much the same way you do. IN verse 11, He says "Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God." Look at the nuances though...You ask for a reply on the parable, I answer.
Let me start off with how I understand the parable, I believe that the sower is an example of a Christian who is planting seeds in people by evangelizing. The plants are the outcomes of the evangelizing.
Right. In verse 12 Jesus says "Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved."We have the first example of the seed, it is planted but nothing happens, it doesn't grow or produce anything. It just stays in the ground. Much like our modern day evangelist who might spread the Word and some people hear it but don't care or reject the Word and so they are not saved and thus they do not grow or produce any fruit.
Sort of. In verse 13 Jesus explains "They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away."We have the second example of the seed that was planted in the rocks, much like a person who hears the Word, is saved, but his or her own growth is stumped by their lack of a personal relationship with God, whatever the reason, they do no grow spiritually and so they slowly wither away.
This one is similar to the one before, except that in the earlier example, we see people whose foundation was weak to begin with. This one talks about people who were strong at first, but were lured away by earthly temptation. He says, in verse 14, "And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection."The third example is of a person who hears the Word, is saved, but when that person begins his/her new life he/she is stumped by either their own sins, or Satan's doings (thus the mention of thorns) or their own family/friends.
Yep, as Jesus says in verse 15, "But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience."The final example is of a person who hears the Word, is saved, and they end up being a Godly Christian, following His commands, growing spiritually and producing much fruit.
That is my interpretation of the parable.
That's all true, but look at it closely... The father received him in forgiveness only after the son came back repentant. It wasn't automatic, and had the son not returned home to seek forgiveness, he'd have continued on, fallen, forever. Of course we can return to the fold if we fall away, and that's the lesson of the Prodigal Son, but it's just as important to understand the necessity of that act of repentance.The prodigal son was also mentioned, I think that proves my point. The son has always been the son, he was never not his father's son, yes he did leave his father and lived in sin, but when he came back he was still his son, and his father welcomed himm gladly with love and joy. When we are born again we are God's children, we may leave Him and turn away, but we will always be His children, and if we come back to Him, He will welcome us with gladness.
He's the founder of Playboy.I don't know who Hugh Hefner is so I can't answer you on that one.
On this, we have a doctrinal disagreement, I'd say. My church doesn't teach that we're punished for Adam's transgressions. There's suffering in the world because it is a fallen, imperfect world. We can agree to disagree on the finer points though, since that's kind of a tangent to the OSAS discussion.You say God does not punish us on earth, then why do we have pain? why do we have sickness? Why do we have death? It is a punishment for the sin that Adam and Eve committed, and punishment for our sins,
That's true. Sometimes suffering and hardship is to our ultimate benefit because we're strengthened by it if we remain faithful. Sometimes it's because, when we're faithful followers of Christ, we gain certain blessings and protections that are withdrawn when we turn away from Him. That isn't the same as a directed punishment however.that is not to say that we will always be punished for every sin we commit, if we are not saved we will get our ultimate punishment at the Judgement Seat of Christ, if we are saved, our sins will have been wiped clean when we get to the Judgement Seat and we will pass on into heaven. Also, every hardship isn't punishment, I didn't say that, take the story of the blind man in John, the Pharisees asked who had sinned that he might be born blind, and Jesus said no one had sinned to cause him to be born blind, he was born blind so that Jesus could heal him and be glorified. Our hardships may not all be punishment for sins, God may be using them to teach us or to bring glory and honor to Him or for some other purpose.
The problem is it's basically saying "Yeah they'd be forced to go, but it's so great there they'll be thankful for it later" and that's incongruent with everything we learn from Scripture. Heaven is a reward, where we lay up our treasures by living the way we should. It's not a prison, nor is it a gilded cage. Every single person who is damned eternally will be a person who chose it, eyes wide open.Yes, the idea of OSAS does imply someone can go into heaven against their will. But, really, when you get to heaven, do you honestly think you'd like to leave and go to a place of eternal pain and separation?
No worries at all.You may cite verses, I was just confused since that was listed amongst the ones I used. My apologies!
Agreed.The Bible does not give instructions on getting rid of your salvation, if our salvation cannot be lost then it would make sense that God would not give us instruction on how to lose it.
Because it's a sin that can certainly be committed by someone who's already been saved. In fact, there's a pretty revolting website where some guy decides to post videos of people denying the Holy Spirit on camera. Many of them started off as baptized Christians. Think they're still saved after committing the unpardonable sin?I don't understand how the example of an unforgivable sin that was said before is of relevance to our conversation, perhaps someone could enlighten me?
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