The Evil Plan

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project312
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The Evil Plan

Postby project312 » Wed Jun 14, 2017 8:27 pm



*NOTE: THIS IS NOT AN ENDORSEMENT AS I DO NOT ADVOCATE FOR THE GRAVEN IMAGES IN CHICK TRACTS
Last edited by project312 on Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:34 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: The Evil Plan

Postby ArcticFox » Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:43 pm

He lost me when he said "from Chick Publications."
"He who takes offense when no offense is intended is a fool, and he who takes offense when offense is intended is a greater fool."
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Re: The Evil Plan

Postby ccgr » Fri Jun 16, 2017 12:17 am

currently reading ESV *shrug*

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Re: The Evil Plan

Postby IBJamon » Fri Jun 16, 2017 12:19 am

He took what could have been a very interesting and enlightening discussion and turned it into a KJV-only rant. Sigh. Too bad.

There was a time when we were KJV only, but we learned since those days, and are no longer. But I do love the KJV very much, and still value my time with it. It brings a lot of historical and context to our faith and is very important to read at least once in my opinion. But we have better translations now.

Chick has done both help and harm with their publications. If one is not a conservative protestant I can understand why there would be animosity there. At some points in our walk their publications have helped us, while others less so.

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Re: The Evil Plan

Postby ArcticFox » Fri Jun 16, 2017 11:06 am

Chick has done both help and harm with their publications. If one is not a conservative protestant I can understand why there would be animosity there. At some points in our walk their publications have helped us, while others less so.
Yeah I won't say Chick's tracts or the company are inherently bad things, and to be honest, around her we love the silliness of some of them. I have no doubt Mr. Chick meant well, and did some great things, but I did see a lot of simple factual inaccuracies in many of his tracts when he would target a particular other religion (mine included) and that led me to believe that either his fact checking was very poor, or he was being willfully inaccurate. I prefer to think it's the former, but too often I've heard various people defend dishonesty by saying the ends justify the means.
"He who takes offense when no offense is intended is a fool, and he who takes offense when offense is intended is a greater fool."
—Brigham Young

"Don't take refuge in the false security of consensus."
—Christopher Hitchens

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Re: The Evil Plan

Postby project312 » Fri Jun 16, 2017 5:38 pm

Before I go on with this, I would like to say, I am not a KJV Onlyist. I am not against other translations (Bibles in different languages), but I am against different versions of the Bible. This really matters because in a lot of those versions there are a lot of contradictions. Take a few for example.

Who killed Goliath?

King James Version: 2 Samuel 21:19 And there was again a battle in Gob with the Philistines, where Elhanan the son of Jaareoregim, a Bethlehemite, slew the brother of Goliath the Gittite, the staff of whose spear was like a weaver's beam.

English Standard Version: 19 And there was again war with the Philistines at Gob, and Elhanan the son of Jaare-oregim, the Bethlehemite, struck down Goliath the Gittite, the shaft of whose spear was like a weaver's beam.[a]

New International Version: 19 In another battle with the Philistines at Gob, Elhanan son of Jair[a] the Bethlehemite killed the brother of Goliath the Gittite, who had a spear with a shaft like a weaver’s rod.

For those that say that this was a different Goliath (the Goliath that David slew was a Gittite), compare to 1 Chronicles 20:5.

King James Version 1 Chronicles 20:5 And there was war again with the Philistines; and Elhanan the son of Jair slew Lahmi the brother of Goliath the Gittite, whose spear staff was like a weaver's beam.

English Standard Version: 5 And there was again war with the Philistines, and Elhanan the son of Jair struck down Lahmi the brother of Goliath the Gittite, the shaft of whose spear was like a weaver's beam.

New International Version: 5 In another battle with the Philistines, Elhanan son of Jair killed Lahmi the brother of Goliath the Gittite, who had a spear with a shaft like a weaver’s rod.

Another example is Acts 8:37. First we have to take the context of this passage. This was when Philip heard an eunuch reading from the book of Isaiah, and he evangelized to him.

King James Version:
35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.


English Standard Version: 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning with this Scripture he told him the good news about Jesus. 36 And as they were going along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, “See, here is water! What prevents me from being baptized?”[e] 38 And he commanded the chariot to stop, and they both went down into the water, Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him. 39 And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord carried Philip away, and the eunuch saw him no more, and went on his way rejoicing.

New International Version:
35 Then Philip began with that very passage of Scripture and told him the good news about Jesus.

36 As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, “Look, here is water. What can stand in the way of my being baptized?” [37] [c] 38 And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him. 39 When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away, and the eunuch did not see him again, but went on his way rejoicing.

This verse is extremely necessarily because the eunuch asked a question, but in the other versions it was not answered, and this is a very crucial question.

Here's one last example: 1 Samuel 13:1. For context I will also list Acts 13:21 since it shows how long Saul reigned.

King James Version:
1 Samuel 13:1 Saul reigned one year; and when he had reigned two years over Israel,

Acts 13:21 And afterward they desired a king: and God gave unto them Saul the son of Cis, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, by the space of forty years.


English Standard Version:
13 Saul lived for one year and then became king, and when he had reigned for two years over Israel,[a]

Footnote:
a 1 Samuel 13:1 Hebrew Saul was one year old when he became king, and he reigned two years over Israel; some Greek manuscripts give Saul's age when he began to reign as thirty years

Can you guys imagine, a king at one years old. Keep in mind that when Saul was chosen, he was VERY tall. Possibly close to 7 feet.

King James Version:
1 Samuel 9:2 And he had a son, whose name was Saul, a choice young man, and a goodly: and there was not among the children of Israel a goodlier person than he: from his shoulders and upward he was higher than any of the people.


New International Version:
13 Saul was thirty[a] years old when he became king, and he reigned over Israel forty- two years.

Footnotes:
a 1 Samuel 13:1 A few late manuscripts of the Septuagint; Hebrew does not have thirty.
b 1 Samuel 13:1 Probable reading of the original Hebrew text (see Acts 13:21); Masoretic Text does not have forty-.

Where did they get 30? Isn't that adding what they are doing?

I'm going to add some more versions on this verse, because it gets pretty ridiculous.

New American Standard Bible:
13 Saul was [a]thirty years old when he began to reign, and he reigned forty two years over Israel.

Footnotes:
a 1 Samuel 13:1 As in some mss of the LXX; Heb omits thirty
b 1 Samuel 13:1 See Acts 13:21; Heb omits forty

Where did they get 42? In Acts Saul only reigned 40 years.

Revised Standard Version:

13 Saul was . . .[a] years old when he began to reign; and he reigned . . . and two years over Israel.
Footnotes:

a 1 Samuel 13:1 The number is lacking in Heb
b 1 Samuel 13:1 Two is not the entire number. Something has dropped out.

Would you trust a Bible with an ellipsis? I really appreciate that the translators were honest here.

The reason why there are all these errors is because in early Church times, there was a group called the Alexandrians (not the citizens of Alexandria, this is the cult). They denied the divinity of Jesus Christ, and they changed the texts to fit their agenda. These are the ones that are commonly used today.

The next big reason why we should use the KJV is because of the absence of 'ye' in other Bible versions. 'Ye' means 'you all' in Middle English. These versions should have translated 'ye' into 'you all' or 'all of you', but instead many times it seems to be translated into 'you' (which is one person).

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Re: The Evil Plan

Postby ArcticFox » Sun Jun 18, 2017 6:00 pm

My Church officially uses the KJV so I just stick with that. It can be useful sometimes to look at other translations to gain insights, but one has to be careful, because some other translations may exist as a way of injecting modern political attitudes into Scripture.
"He who takes offense when no offense is intended is a fool, and he who takes offense when offense is intended is a greater fool."
—Brigham Young

"Don't take refuge in the false security of consensus."
—Christopher Hitchens

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Re: The Evil Plan

Postby selderane » Sat Aug 12, 2017 4:32 am

Project312,

Your post is copied from a website. What is your source? There are many reasons there may be textual differences between translations and to simply lay verses side-by-side sans that context seems misleading.

And what is the agenda of your source?

Please provide a link to the website you pulled it from, because it's not entirely accurate. I'll just take 2 Samuel 21:19.

You're correct that the KJV and the ESV do not agree. Does that mean the ESV omitted something?

Well, let's look at the JPS 1917 Edition of that passage:

"And there was again war with the Philistines at Gob; and Elhanan the son of Jaare-oregim the Beth-lehemite slew Goliath the Gittite, the staff of whose spear was like a weaver's beam."

Like the ESV, there's no mention of Goliath's brother. What is the JPS? The Jewish Publication Society of America. This is the first English copy of the Tanakh by a committee of Jews.

So, who is right? Well, the purpose of the ESV was to give a very literal translation of Scripture. That may be why it agrees with the JPS. It's possible it eschewed adding clarification derived from later passages to this passage to keep with their mission to deliver the literal meaning (that's speculation on my part, but not unreasonable).

I'm saying all of this because translation is a tricky business and it's misleading to put two passages side-by-side and exclaim "Ah-HA!" without 1) understanding what that translation is trying to do, 2) what its sources are and, 3) referring back to the original language.
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Re: The Evil Plan

Postby project312 » Tue Aug 15, 2017 3:10 am

Hey Selderane,

I did not paste a source for the respone I made, these are examples that I gathered from research and that Bible believers have pointed out (some parts may be paraphrased from other articles), the commentary is original content that I made (if you are talking about the video, it is from Chick Publications). The agenda is to make sure that people are reading the true Scriptures. If it can be broken, it is not Scripture, as shown in John 10: 35.

John 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

The reason why the differences in translation matters in 2 Samuel 21:19, is that Goliath of Gittite, is the Goliath that David slew (compare with 1 Chronicles 20:5). Many of the other versions using the Alexandrian texts say that Elhanan killed Goliath, which is not true because David slew him.

I know that the translation is trying to make a literal translation of the Bible, but if it has horrendous errors like this (even how non-literal ones have the same errors), then it is probably not using pure texts.

Psalms 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
Last edited by project312 on Wed May 09, 2018 3:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Evil Plan

Postby evered » Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:52 am

Boy Oh boy does ccgr get dark sometimes...

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Re: The Evil Plan

Postby evered » Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:53 am

Can't we talk about candies and random unicorns instead?

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Re: The Evil Plan

Postby mmcmullen3 » Thu Oct 19, 2017 5:44 pm

Lot of misinformation above so I thought I would clear up being a Hebrew and Greek scholar. as far as 2 Samuel and some of the others the reason for the differences in the KJV and NASB or other versions is not because the NASB is incorrect it is because the KJV added (Brother) to the context, so it is actually the KJV that changed the text. Here is the original Greek καὶ ἐγένετο ὁ πόλεμος ἐν Γοβ μετὰ τῶν ἀλλοφύλων καὶ ἐπάταξεν Ελεαναν υἱὸς Αριωργιμ ὁ Βαιθλεεμίτης τὸν Γολιαθ τὸν Γεθθαῖον καὶ τὸ ξύλον τοῦ δόρατος αὐτοῦ ὡς ἀντίον ὑφαινόντων (2Sa 21:19 BGT) you see the reader would know this is the brother of Goliath because 1 Chronicles 20:5 And there was war with the Philistines again, and Elhanan the son of Jair killed Lahmi the brother of Goliath the Gittite, the shaft of whose spear was like a weaver's beam. (1Ch 20:5 NAS) which all the versions listed get correct, It is the original language that has the conflict because the word Goliath is both a name and meaning of a philistine Giant. So really KJV is no better than the NASB, and actually I would argue the NASB, NRSV are actually better versions. But I read the NKJV and NASB side by side because they use different text, NKJV using the Vulgate and NASB translated from the original masoric Greek text. I might add that when attending Seminary these 3 versions are the only versions allowed to do Greek study. So the above arguments about the KJV only are false because they exploit the textual flaw from the original language that the kjv took liberty to correct, but if it was an accurate translation at least in this case they should not have taken such liberty. I will highlight the original language so everyone can see it simply says he slew Goliath (not the brother of) אֹרְגִ֜ים בֵּ֣ית הַלַּחְמִ֗י אֵ֚ת גָּלְיָ֣ת (2Sa 21:19 WTT) in original Hebrew and Αριωργιμ ὁ Βαιθλεεμίτης τὸν Γολιαθ (2Sa 21:19 BGT) I thought I would chime in and correct this thinking because I do not like when websites are agenda based on their point and are not honest about the reason for the use of the insertion of (brother of) because the original Greek and Hebrew make no such assertion. -Rev. Mike McMullen

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Re: The Evil Plan

Postby ArcticFox » Mon Oct 23, 2017 4:02 pm

Debates over differences in scriptural translation will go on prettymuch forever. Everybody believes the translation they're using must be the best possible or they wouldn't be using it.

Let's be honest. Differences in doctrine, traditions, sermons and beliefs within Christianity aren't the result of changes coming form the various translations. How many different denominations have these differences and yet share the same Biblical translation?

If you want to understand scripture, you need to let the Holy Spirit guide your study. Do that, and the details of translation become all but irrelevant except as an academic subject because you will gain understanding of the true meaning.

I used to chase the "perfect" biblical translation. At one point I had a bunch of different Bibles of different translations and every single one of them was the "best" translation from one person's point of view or another.

These days I rely on a KJV because it's the version bundled with my Book of Mormon. If you prefer a NIV or a Catholic Standard or whatever, knock yourself out. The message is ultimately the same.
"He who takes offense when no offense is intended is a fool, and he who takes offense when offense is intended is a greater fool."
—Brigham Young

"Don't take refuge in the false security of consensus."
—Christopher Hitchens


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