Evolution?

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1faz11
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Evolution?

Postby 1faz11 » Thu Dec 29, 2016 9:18 pm

So recently, I was discussing with my Atheist friend about Evolution. Personally, I don't believe in it but always struggle to put into words why. I was curious as to if anyone could help with this?
We also discussed the big bang theory and the same issue occurred.

If anyone could supply me with any points or tips that'd be awesome C:

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Re: Evolution?

Postby ArcticFox » Fri Dec 30, 2016 12:16 am

The trouble with Evolution theory is that it cannot be arrived at via the scientific method. It can't be replicated in a lab, and it can't be observed. It's essentially the creation myth for secular thinking.

If there are any particular arguments your friend has made that you'd like some feedback on, by all means share them here.
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Re: Evolution?

Postby ccgr » Fri Dec 30, 2016 1:17 am

I just started reading this book and find it good so far (in the 1st chapter still) Maybe it's available at your library?

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Re: Evolution?

Postby Sstavix » Fri Dec 30, 2016 3:05 am

The trouble with Evolution theory is that it cannot be arrived at via the scientific method. It can't be replicated in a lab, and it can't be observed.
I've actually heard some people say that they can prove evolution in a laboratory setting. I read an article years ago about scientists who created a four-winged fruit fly in a lab. Apparently, the thing couldn't fly very well, and would likely be quickly eaten if it were in the wild. But still! Evolution!

... erm, no. All they managed to prove is that defective fruit flies could be specifically and deliberately created. In other words, intelligent design. Their argument was invalid.

I can see some argument for micro-evolution. There have been studies, for example, of moths that have changed their coloring over the decades because of air pollution. It was a "survival of the fittest" type of scenario. Those moths with lighter wings were easier to spot against the soot-filled air, and thus were eaten more readily than the dark-winged mutations. So I'm willing to give that argument a pass.

What doesn't make any sense to me is macro-evolution. I find it hard to believe that humans, cats, fruit trees, goldfish, parrots, sunflowers, and triceratops all had a common ancestor. Basically, in order for such diversity to occur, the following things had to happen:

1) Two specimens of a species mutated in exactly the same way - and this was a radical mutation, such as a mud wasp hatching from a bumblebee egg.
2) These two mutations had to be close enough to meet without being eaten or otherwise destroyed by their environment.
3) The mutations had to be in such a way that the two could breed. In other words, if they were infertile (e.g. mules) or both of the same gender, then there would be no children from such a union.
4) This had to happen millions - even billions - of times in order to have the diversity of the creatures we have on this planet, including all of the species that have gone extinct (such as dinosaurs and mammoths).

Now, in order to accept all of this as an absolute truth - especially with no scientific way to actually prove that this has happened - requires a certain degree of... faith. And if we're taking things on faith... well, we're not talking about science any more, are we? :wink:

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Re: Evolution?

Postby RedPlums » Fri Dec 30, 2016 4:00 am

To begin, always remember that Evolution is a THEORY, it has not been proven true by the scientific method and therefore it is unethical to teach and preach it.

The Big Bang Theory is just that, a THEORY, it has yet to be proven as well.

Now, i am going to focus on the big bang (BB). Les say that I hand you a big wad of nothing, nada, not a thing, just air, and with that big wad of nothing i tell you to make something, could you do it? No! of course not. You can't make something out of nothing. That's not physically possible. That is what the BB claims. That something was made out of nothing. Scientists will tell you that at first there was nothing, no space no stars no worlds, nothing, then there was an explosion, and from that explosion our universe came to be. Well, what exploded? Nothing can't explode, it's nothing! Something would have had to be there for that explosion to happen, but scientists say there was nothing there at first! So the BB theory isn't possible based upon it's own foundational beliefs. You cannot make something, out of nothing.

Then the only logical explanation we are left with is that a supernatural and all powerful being, made the universe from nothing. It takes more faith to believe in the Big Bang Theory than in Creation.

Also, for more information AnswersInGenesis and the Institute for Creation Research websites both have very good information on refuting the claims of evolution and proving creation.
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Re: Evolution?

Postby Sstavix » Fri Dec 30, 2016 5:19 am

Now, i am going to focus on the big bang (BB). Les say that I hand you a big wad of nothing, nada, not a thing, just air, and with that big wad of nothing i tell you to make something, could you do it? No! of course not. You can't make something out of nothing. That's not physically possible. That is what the BB claims. That something was made out of nothing. Scientists will tell you that at first there was nothing, no space no stars no worlds, nothing, then there was an explosion, and from that explosion our universe came to be. Well, what exploded? Nothing can't explode, it's nothing! Something would have had to be there for that explosion to happen, but scientists say there was nothing there at first! So the BB theory isn't possible based upon it's own foundational beliefs. You cannot make something, out of nothing.
I've heard a variation of that theory that makes a bit more sense. Basically, it goes under the idea that the universe is in constant motion, either expanding or contracting, over the course of trillions of years. Once all the stuff in the universe expands outward as far as it's going to go, gravity will start pulling everything back together. Eventually it gets to the point where everything gets so compacted together and tight that the sheer amount of energy goes BANG and sends everything flying apart again. It's an interesting idea, but as you said, only a theory, since there's no way to replicate this in a lab or observe it actually happening.

Interestingly enough, though, there's another theory going around that the Big Bang theory is false (or, at least, an amusing television show at the most). The Big Bang theory mandates that the universe has an edge, or at least some residue that has sped out faster than anything else. However, this edge has never been discovered, and scientists are theorizing that this is because there is no edge. The universe just goes on and on endlessly. And likewise, the same goes for the age of the universe. According to this theory, you can't tell how old the universe is because the universe never had a beginning. Or an ending. It's always just been there, and always will be. It's eternal and timeless. Kind of like God, really.

Again, it's just a theory, and will be impossible to prove or disprove. But in this regards, science isn't that much different from philosophy. Just a bunch of guys with expensive degrees sitting around in a room asking "what if" questions. ;) Regardless of which theory is right or wrong - or if the truth is something completely different - it certainly isn't helping to find a cure for cancer or making a more efficient mousetrap. You know, things that might actually be useful.

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Re: Evolution?

Postby Gamer4Christ » Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:43 pm

A great source to look at is Answers in Genesis apologetics. They're the same people behind the Creation Museum and the recent Ark Encounter. I've listened and read much of their materials and attended two of their conferences, and they are fantastic at equipping you with the tools you need to defend the faith.

Here is a link to their website. They have tons of articles there regarding theories and topics like: Million years, Big Bang, Day-Age Theory, Dinosaurs, Radioactive Dating, Astronomy, Geology, Archeology, etc. They even touch upon other commonly debated issues like gay marriage and abortion. Plus, they are written and run by scientists with Ph.D.s who do believe the Bible from beginning to end. All of it is dedicated to equiping you with what every Christian need to battle falsehoods. It's a goldmine.

https://answersingenesis.org

As a bonus, they also offer purchasable curriculums and supplemental materials from books to DVDs. I, however, would urge you to pick up The Ultimate Proof of Creation by Dr. Jason Lyle. It is the ultimate guide on how to make convincing arguments against Bible opposers that forces them to re-think their views. This book is tailored to anyone of any educational level. You don't even need a lot of head knowlegde to use its methods effectively. It gets right down to the center of the issues. It was extremely helpful to me, during a few disagreements I had with non-believers.

Anyway, I hope this helps. Please, please, please, look at these sources. They are amazing! :D

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Re: Evolution?

Postby King_Hyder » Sat Jan 28, 2017 5:22 am

Evolution has very many problems. One, being that there is no fossil evidence of one animal evolving into a different one. Two, being why are there still primates if we evolved from them. Three, being evolution cant produce consciousness. Consciousness being the ability to know you exist.

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Re: Evolution?

Postby ArchAngel » Mon Jan 30, 2017 9:07 pm

I leave you guys alone and this is what you do? Is there no one else to disrupt the echo chamber?
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Re: Evolution?

Postby ccgr » Mon Jan 30, 2017 9:24 pm

Guess not :)

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Re: Evolution?

Postby Sstavix » Tue Jan 31, 2017 1:30 am

I leave you guys alone and this is what you do? Is there no one else to disrupt the echo chamber?
I did what I could. ;) You were actually the one to show me the counter-theory to the Big Bang (which is kind of cool, I admit).

But short of the Big Guy coming down, raising His hand and saying "I did it," what kind of evidence would it take to convince an atheist that there is some merit to the theory of an intelligent creator who designed everything?

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Re: Evolution?

Postby harold5187 » Tue Jan 31, 2017 8:12 am

For me, personally, no one ever had to convince me of anything, concerning beliefs, and then there was the chance that even if they shared an opinion with me, that's all it would be, ...is THEIR opinion, because the only truth I accept is the Bible, everything is, just speculative, in my opinion.

I recommend Kent Hovind; All of my beliefs are based on what the Bible says, my eyes see, and my gut instinct is telling me, so long as what I see, does not contradict with what the Bible says. Kent Hovind just backs up what I already believe, for example, that the Earth is not billions of years old, not even 1 million, probably not even 20,000 years, and Dinosaurs existed with man, were vegetarian up until Noah's Ark, when God said, ...animals are gonna be afraid of you now! At that point they became meat eaters!

Guess we have to ask ourselves, why wasn't Adam & Eve covered with leather, instead of leaves? Other things may possibly be answered, such as how did the Egyptians build those giant Pyramids, maybe Elephants, or maybe dinosaurs, who knows, only God.

I like Kent Hovind, has some good messages, if you can get past the "buy my cd's", God bless the man, but if I want something I'll buy it, assuming I can even afford it... He's a good guy, and one point I would like to point out, is that, it's okay to have differences between Christians, so long as what we disagree with is not condemning to the soul, Paul spoke out against the Church being separated by doctrines and petty squabbles.

For instance, I'm not going to go to hell if I can't explain the Book of Revelations, but telling someone that Baptism is not necessary, because times change and God adjusts Himself accordingly based on our disposition, is sinful. Some people believe Baptism is not necessary because they bring up Paul, and how Paul never baptize, even that is not true, because Paul did baptize a few individuals, ...the deal is, Paul was famous, and did not want any one to boast of having been baptized by Paul, so he handed the task down to others to perform, and even then, it doesn't really matter what so and so said, or didn't say, because Jesus Christ overwrites all of them...

What did Jesus say regarding Baptism?
Unless ye be born of water and the spirit you will not see the Kingdom of God!
In summary, it's okay to disagree, or simply not know, or understand everything, in the Bible, as long as the issue is not condemning to the soul. I don't believe in a few points from Hugh Ross, but if he confesses that Jesus Christ is Lord, believes in his heart that Jesus was raised from the dead, then he shall be saved. I won't sweat the small differences, lets us as Christians come together on what we agree with, not be separated by what we disagree on!

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Re: Evolution?

Postby ArchAngel » Tue Jan 31, 2017 10:41 pm

But short of the Big Guy coming down, raising His hand and saying "I did it," what kind of evidence would it take to convince an atheist that there is some merit to the theory of an intelligent creator who designed everything?
So, as all scientific evidence is required, you would need to start drawing up reasonable conditions on which we wouldn't expect to occur in the case of an intelligent creator and demonstrating they won't happen. In addition, you'd have to find conditions that would occur under an intelligent creator but not without.

Before those steps, however, It'd be important to come up with a rigorous definition of what an intelligent creator would entail. I have not seen any that simple gloss over and are treated as a stand in as "God." Especially if you want to make extrapolations that the intelligent creator is the god of the christian bible, there's a lot more work to be done as opposed to "someone that creates." Once you have a definition to start with, we can start looking at negating conditions that can't exist if the hypothesis is true, and see if we can find them or not.

This is just to start, however. The various theories of evolution have a lot of support behind them and have only been growing and becoming more finessed over the century and a half, so I'd be impressed if they can get overturned. Even if you can reasonable prove a creating entity, to disprove evolutionary processes, (biological, astronomical, etc.), I have a difficulty conceiving. It's demonstrated itself well past my satisfaction.

And to me, that always brings up the question. Even when I called myself a skeptic of evolution, so many creationists were so convinced that Evolution was wrong. I grew up with creationist textbooks, I'm still unsure what truly convinced them that Evolution was wrong, outside of their reading of scripture. And it's best to be honest, if it's your religion, own it. Be upfront and honest on why. If it's a religion vs. science thing, just admit it.
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Re: Evolution?

Postby Lazarus » Tue Jan 31, 2017 11:15 pm

I leave you guys alone and this is what you do? Is there no one else to disrupt the echo chamber?
If people want to believe nonsense, who are we to judge? Isn't that the golden rule?

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Re: Evolution?

Postby ArchAngel » Tue Jan 31, 2017 11:21 pm

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