OSAS?

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ArcticFox
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Re: OSAS?

Postby ArcticFox » Sun May 11, 2014 10:58 pm

I'm glad to have a new participant in the discussion, by the way. :D I have a few thoughts about your last post, but I'll have to write more later.
"He who takes offense when no offense is intended is a fool, and he who takes offense when offense is intended is a greater fool."
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Re: OSAS?

Postby RedPlums » Sun May 11, 2014 11:39 pm

To be honest with you guys I don't wish to have a long winded discussion over the internet, I believe that spiritual conversations are best done in person. :)

That being said, I do enjoy expressing my thoughts on some items and learning things from others as well. :D

Thank you!
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Re: OSAS?

Postby DCTech » Tue May 13, 2014 6:41 am

I have learned very well that it is indeed possible to lose one's salvation. It is deceptively easy if you take your eyes off the Lord. It begins with a single step, and before you know it, you're off on your own, thinking you're following Him, but hearing something else and either leading others to destruction, or you'll feel tortured and trapped, with no exit with the roaring in your head that it's God's fault. Think it can't happen? Pride comes before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall. Let me tell ya, I'm only here by God's grace, not by my own strength. Hope this story helps someone.

I once had a very troubling experience, back in 2009. In September of that year, I moved into a former hospital that had been donated to a childhood pastor of mine, partially to get away from my mother, but mainly because I wanted to get into the ministry there and get closer to God. What I found was at least one false prophet had moved in and was attempting to take over the entire ministry. While I believe at one time he had been saved, he had gone in a very Pharaseeical direction, and had twisted his doctrine into something very cultic. As if that were not bad enough, there were two demons residing in that building that I was personally aware of. One of them resided in the basement, where the morgue used to be, and would come up around dusk to roam the very back of the hall, where everything was trashed and there was no power. One might ask, "DCTech, how do you know your mind wasn't playing tricks on you?" I was one of three eye-witnesses who watched a the cone of a powerful halogen flashlight get completely absorbed by a shape comprised entirely of darkness. The shape moved when I shined the light, then stepped away from the wall and into the light, as if to gloat. The window and the wall reflected light to a degree. Even the wall displayed a spot of light, but when the shape got in front of it, there was absolutely nothing.

Anyway, getting back to the main story. This guy ruled this ministry helping and sheltering the homeless with an iron fist, and would freak out on anyone who questioned him in any way. After two months, I was used up by the people there and was injured on the job, so they kicked me out. The very next year, I moved again, and was studying the bible for a few days, when the Lord spoke to me about this man. He said, "It is better for a man to tie a millstone around his neck and fall into the sea than to lead one of my children astray". When I asked what He meant, He spoke of the so-called head pastor by name, and said his salvation was gone. Despite the fact that I considered this man my enemy, I wept for him like a brother, and begged the Lord to spare him. All I could say was "Why, Lord, why?" and He merely said His children were deliberately led to destruction. It would lend to reason that this man blasphemied the Holy Spirit by misleading these homeless and desperate people through the twisting of Scripture and repeated claims that he heard the Lord say this an that, but that is not what had Jesus so angry. It was the children. We are all children in the eyes of God.

The lesson I learned from this was to be very, very careful what I prayed for, because I prayed for God to judge him so I did not have to. I also learned how easy it was to stray from the path. Since then, the devil has tried several times to stress me to the breaking point, and to force me to renounce Christ by trying to convince me my miseries were brought on by God, or that Jesus rejected me, or even mocked me. I came far closer to renouncing Christ than I care to admit, but the Holy Spirit was there, bringing just enough peace that I could hear its whispered wisdom. It asked me two questions when things got so bad, I wanted to either renounce Christ or kill myself: why is it so important that I renounce Christ, and who would benefit from it? The questions always cut through my rage and despair, because they were so simple. Why is it so important that I renounce Christ? Such a renouncement would wound both Jesus and God the Father, and only the Enemy would benefit from that. The Enemy as in Satan, who has only intended my destruction since I was in my mother's womb. (IUD's folks. Ever wonder exactly how they prevent unwanted pregnancy?)

So no, salvation is not "OSAS". You can walk away, but you better ask yourself who benefits.
It's kinda tough for God to lie when everything He says tends to pop into existence.

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Re: OSAS?

Postby RedPlums » Tue May 13, 2014 11:55 pm

A good story indeed, and I do doubt it's validity, but I found this quite interesting.
Ephesians 1:13-14, Paul says our inheritance is guaranteed:

And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.

In 2 Corinthians 1:21-22, Paul says we have a guarantee and adds that this "seal" means God owns us:

Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

Then in Romans 8:38-39, Paul says nothing, not even us, can cause the loss of salvation:
For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Now if God promised the Holy Spirit to us, why would he back out of His promise and take away our salvation? He is not an un-faithful God. God always delivers 110% on His promises. :D

Thankfully I might add, I am sure our lives would be totally different if He did not keep His promises. :D
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Re: OSAS?

Postby Sstavix » Wed May 14, 2014 5:12 am

Now if God promised the Holy Spirit to us, why would he back out of His promise and take away our salvation? He is not an un-faithful God. God always delivers 110% on His promises. :D
God may be faithful to us... but can any of us be 100% faithful to Him? We can certainly try... but needless to say, even if being a faithful member for decades, all of us are human, and any of us can stumble and fall.

You mention the idea of entering into Christ as a "promise." I view it more of a contract - God will guide us and protect us... but we need to do what we promised to do as well. If we don't hold up our end of the contract, why should God hold up His? Fortunately for us, He is merciful and is willing to forgive us our trespasses if we seek honest and open redemption.

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Re: OSAS?

Postby RedPlums » Wed May 14, 2014 7:53 pm

Well, I believe each person is entitled to his/her own opinion.

I've enjoyed the debate, but I have no more to say on the matter. I still hold firm to my belief and maybe I am right, perhaps I am wrong, I shall find out in Heaven. No one is always correct, right? :)

Thank you! :D
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Re: OSAS?

Postby RedPlums » Thu May 15, 2014 2:37 am

And so, in closing (Because everyone needs a closing statement in a great debate. :wink: )

Jesus Christ says that we have ETERNAL life with our salvation, if we have ETERNAL life then we can't lose our salvation. If we lose our salvation then we lose ETERNAL life, and that would be contradictory because eternal means, (this is the literal translation)

e·ter·nal
/iˈtərnl/
adjective
adjective: eternal
lasting or existing forever; without end or beginning.

So, honestly, we can't lose our salvation, it's eternal, God even said so, and if God said so it's true, He can't lie. Then, wouldn't saying that losing our salvation is saying that Jesus is wrong? That salvation is NOT eternal? That doesn't hold any water in the Bible or the Christian life, it's saying the our LORD Jesus was wrong, calling Him a liar.
22 Now it was the Feast of Dedication in Jerusalem, and it was winter. 23 And Jesus walked in the temple, in Solomon’s porch. 24 Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, “How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”

25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”


It says, here, in John 10:29 that no one, not a single person nor thing, can snatch the saved from God's hand. So, we are either saved, and have eternal life with Jesus Christ our LORD, or we are not saved, and simply act like it.

And again, I tell you, the parable of the seeds, the one that grows and falls away, it is the likeness of a man who proclaims that he is saved, and acts righteous, but he isn't, and so, when he comes under trials he crumbles and falters because he does not have true faith in Christ.

And, in closing, your arguments are not valid, saying that we can lose salvation is contradicting Jesus, saying the we can lose our ETERNAL salvation is going against what Jesus says, that we will keep our ETERNAL salvation, that no one can snatch us from our Father's hand.

Thank you very much! :D
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Re: OSAS?

Postby ArcticFox » Thu May 15, 2014 1:36 pm

if we have ETERNAL life then we can't lose our salvation.
Well, no, that interpretation doesn't follow simply from the word "eternal." The word you want here is "immutable." Salvation is certainly eternal provided we don't cast it off.
So, honestly, we can't lose our salvation, it's eternal, God even said so, and if God said so it's true, He can't lie. Then, wouldn't saying that losing our salvation is saying that Jesus is wrong? That salvation is NOT eternal? That doesn't hold any water in the Bible or the Christian life, it's saying the our LORD Jesus was wrong, calling Him a liar.
Well, no. We're not saying Jesus is a liar. We're saying He never said salvation was immutable in the first place, which is true.
It says, here, in John 10:29 that no one, not a single person nor thing, can snatch the saved from God's hand.
So someone who loses his faith and wants nothing more to do with the Lord would have to be dragged kicking and screaming into Heaven? That seems very odd to me.
So, we are either saved, and have eternal life with Jesus Christ our LORD, or we are not saved, and simply act like it.

And again, I tell you, the parable of the seeds, the one that grows and falls away, it is the likeness of a man who proclaims that he is saved, and acts righteous, but he isn't, and so, when he comes under trials he crumbles and falters because he does not have true faith in Christ.
The notion that a person who is really saved will go to heaven, and if they fall away it was because they were never really saved to begin with is circular logic.

In closing, these arguments make leaps that are not logically supported nor are they supported in the text. When Jesus promises eternal salvation that is His part of the covenant we make when we choose to follow Him. If we break that covenant we deny ourselves those rewards. OSAS only works if freewill is not in effect. You cannot have both.
"He who takes offense when no offense is intended is a fool, and he who takes offense when offense is intended is a greater fool."
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Re: OSAS?

Postby RoosterOnAStick » Fri May 16, 2014 2:46 pm

My beef with once saved always saved is the whole "perhaps they were never saved to begin with" sentiment. It always seems like it is retconning someone's life experiences and making judgments on their character. You are essentially saying "you were never saved, even though you said you were seeking God, you obviously didn't". Honestly, what was the point of trying at all then? Why even bother?

Besides, how does anyone know that? By what pretense does someone who says this presume to sit on the Judgment Seat? Yes I know that it isn't most people's intents to do that, but that is what happens. In fact, that's really the only logical conclusion I can think of for this mindset. I have heard people talking about "seeing the fruits" of salvation, but sometimes not giving a clear idea of what those are until you are told that you aren't exhibiting them.

The way I look at it, God will never turn away anyone who genuinely seeks Him, even if they wind up falling away later, He still waits for them and looks to draw them back to Him. If we return, He will not hold it against us. God takes a look at the entire life of a person, not just a single moment in time where they have become "saved". Salvation is part of a lifelong journey with Him, growing ever more like Him and closer to Him.
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Re: OSAS?

Postby ArcticFox » Fri May 16, 2014 7:00 pm

The Prodigal Son had to choose to come back.
"He who takes offense when no offense is intended is a fool, and he who takes offense when offense is intended is a greater fool."
—Brigham Young

"Don't take refuge in the false security of consensus."
—Christopher Hitchens

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Re: OSAS?

Postby Sacntus_Incendia » Sat Jun 14, 2014 4:17 am

I'd like to just take a moment so say that I read the entirety of this thread (lengthy, but not a bad thing :wink: ) and it would seem to that both sides have good standpoints by which they are reasoning. I like that. It did raise a few questions for me, though. Most is related, but there are a few that seem a little more random, so please bare with me.

1. In Romans 8:38-39 it states that nothing in creation will be able to separate us from the love of Jesus Christ. Being that we are within God's creation, wouldn't even ourselves be incapable of cutting our ties with the LORD? Or am I misinterpreting?

2. In John 10:27-30, Jesus says that no one would be able to snatch us from Him. Would we not also be included in that "no one"? However, at the same time he describes his sheep as those who listen to Him and follow Him, which I could see the other viewpoint in. So what exactly are those verses trying to convey about this? Because it seems like a contradiction, which I know doesn't truly exist in God's Word, which makes me think that maybe I'm looking at those verses in the wrong way? I'd enjoy some correction.

3. Now for the more random one. What of young children and unborn? Are they also to perish before understanding? And if not, where do you draw the line?

As for how this debate should affect the way we serve, I plan on just living my life faithfully with the LORD. I know that if I slip God is always there waiting and ready for me and is ready to forgive me, so I don't think that one fall, or two, or two thousand slips will take me any further from God if I return. We should all just try to live our lives with God.

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Re: OSAS?

Postby ccgr » Sat Jun 14, 2014 1:51 pm

Welcome to the forums and you're brave for treading these waters! ;)

We still have free will, while God could force us to love Him without hesitation, He gives us the option to do so. I can tell you from experience of being a cat owner it is a privilege when my cat chooses to love on me. She gets really expressive and it's on her terms, I can't ask her to come and knead me, she chooses to do it. (sometimes at 4am like this morning) My dog's love is not demanded but more constant and expected. He'll sit by me and follow me and enjoys my petting and it is never enough, whereas my cat will sometimes follow and only sometimes want to be pet. When she has enough she'll walk away. Out of the two, my cat's love is the more unique because I know she is sincerely showing her affection. Imagine how God feels when we choose to acknowledge and worship Him. There are times where we may drift and walk away, but He will always be there when we repent and come back. Just because we may think think He's not there, He still is.

I believe that active followers of Christ cannot be snatched out of God's hands. I've seen those paranormal shows and I'd honestly be surprised if a person filled with the Holy Spirit needed an exorcism. I don't think our bodies could be indwelled by a demon if we're serving, believing and walking with Christ.

I don't know what the "age" is but I do believe that babies (unborn or not) and children go to heaven, when king David lost his son, he said that his son could not return to him but he would go to him. (2 Sam 12:23)

No matter what the age, God is a just judge, no one will contest his judgement. He knows both our motives and actions. We're sinners and flawed,we need His mercy and grace.

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Re: OSAS?

Postby Sstavix » Sat Jun 14, 2014 8:03 pm

1. In Romans 8:38-39 it states that nothing in creation will be able to separate us from the love of Jesus Christ. Being that we are within God's creation, wouldn't even ourselves be incapable of cutting our ties with the LORD? Or am I misinterpreting?
I would think there is a slight misinterpretation there. Jesus Christ and Heavenly Father will love us no matter what. However, this isn't necessarily a two-way street; He still loves us even if we don't love him back. As with the parable of the prodigal son, even if we leave that love and do some pretty terrible things, we will still be loved and we can return if we choose to do so.
2. In John 10:27-30, Jesus says that no one would be able to snatch us from Him. Would we not also be included in that "no one"? However, at the same time he describes his sheep as those who listen to Him and follow Him, which I could see the other viewpoint in. So what exactly are those verses trying to convey about this? Because it seems like a contradiction, which I know doesn't truly exist in God's Word, which makes me think that maybe I'm looking at those verses in the wrong way? I'd enjoy some correction.
I would also consider the aspect of free will, too. If you are of the mindset that we have no free will, then we indeed wouldn't be able to break away from it. However, I think that we have all been given the gift of free will, as part of the process to refine ourselves for whatever we will find on the other side. There is another thread around here about the existence of free will, if you wanted to look into that.
3. Now for the more random one. What of young children and unborn? Are they also to perish before understanding? And if not, where do you draw the line?
I don't know what the "age" is but I do believe that babies (unborn or not) and children go to heaven, when king David lost his son, he said that his son could not return to him but he would go to him. (2 Sam 12:23)
The LDS church believes the "age of accountability," or the age when we are all responsible for our own sins, is 8 years old. Other churches may have their own opinions, but there's one statement, at least.


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