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A good point that's completely undermined by Holdo engaging the hyperdrive to disable the First Order fleet. What Rose did makes zero sense to me, because she basically handed the base over to the 1st Order. Could they have brought another big gun? Maybe, but that's more time the Resistance would have had to get away.Chozon1 wrote: Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:59 am The cat horse thing, I think, was to tie in Rose's point at the end; they weren't fighting the rebellion to kill the bad people, but to save what they loved. It kinds ties in with Rogue One. There comes a point in fighting evil where, if you aren't careful, you can become just as bad as the bad guys. You have to fight for something, not against something--which is why Rose saved Finn. His sacrifice at that point would have meant nothing. The Empire at their throats, they just would have brought in another big gun in like twenty minutes.
The attempted self sacrifice at the end his was Finn's chance to actually DO something and bring his arc to a great close, but nope. Finn's presence in the movie had -zero- net effect on the story. Yes, he had an arc, but ultimately his efforts were completely pointless.Chozon1 wrote: Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:59 am Don't forget that their stop at that planet also planted the seeds of rebellion there. Something that only happened because they showed that they were the definitive good guys. If they had shot, blown up, and fought their way through the casino--pulling a Rogue One, basically--little Timmy the jedi would not have wanted to join the rebellion when he grew up. Also, what changed was Finn. In the first movie he's constantly trying to escape. He's not a rebel; he wants to hide. Live on the fringes and let the First Order do whatever they want, as long as he and his friends are safe. He starts off this movie that way, actually.
Now...he's a rebel. Dedicated to saving the galaxy, even at the cost of his own life. It's a complete character shift. Comparable, perhaps, to Han's heart change in A New Hope. Just took Finn longer.
You're probably right about Phasma, but her fails are adding up FAST. At this point if she comes back she won't be perceived as much of a threat by the audience.Chozon1 wrote: Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:59 am Phasma, too, I don't think is dead.Not because she's useless as a villain--though she is. Comedically so, in fact--but because she is Finn's nemesis. Not just a baddie he wants to stop, but a personal nemesis. I could be wrong there, though. Snoke I'm pretty confident on; being cut in half is surprisingly unlethal in the Star Wars universe. Less because I think he needs to be alive, more because...Kylo is an idiot, the other guy has the severe crazies, and without Snoke there's not really a super-evil bad guy.
I don't think it was Snoke that turned Ben Solo to the dark side. Did they say that and I just missed it?Chozon1 wrote: Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:59 am I would also argue the idea that Snoke's backstory doesn't matter. Thing is, he somehow managed to turn the son of Leia and Han--die hard anti-empire rebels who saved the universe--to the dark side. There's got to be a reason--a temptation or something--that he was able to do that. Some way he was able to convince one of the most powerful force users under the direct tutelage of the ultimate Jedi to go dark side. Granted, they could play they 'Babby Ben was an idiot' card. Or blame Luke's teaching somehow for being stodgy. But I'd rather they didn't. If they go the 'my parents were so awesome and never loved me' route, I'ma walk out of the theater. XD
See, that's the problem. If a character is doing something that doesn't serve the plot just to give them something to do, then you're better off cutting the character. This movie would have been much better if they'd completely cut Poe, Finn and Rose out of it because literally NOTHING any of them did served the plot. Well, Poe did lead the attack on the Star Destroyer at the beginning so it made sense to have him there, but Poe was never meant to be a big character. He was actually supposed to die in the crash on Jaku in Episode 7 but Abrams liked the actor's performance and had him written in more later.Deepfreeze32 wrote: Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:14 pmI very much agree with this. The point of that side story was to develop Finn as a character, and I think on those ground it succeeded smashingly. The change from TFA Finn is very noticeable (he's no longer being a coward, but in fact being as not-cowardly as he can be), and I agree with the assessment that he's a rebel now. Sure, we can quibble about whether or not it focused too much on them, but I don't think character development has to be a net-positive-plot-movement thing. By the same token you could argue that the Poe mutiny (again, reminded me a little of BSG) is wasted time because it doesn't really progress the plot, and in fact ruins the Resistance plan. However I think both of these side stories are crucial to the development of Finn and Poe. We can argue if splitting them up like this was a good idea, sure. I think you could probably cut Poe and Finn out of this movie and you have a very solid story with Rey, Luke, Leia, and Kylo. But Poe and Finn got introduced in TFA, so I guess we have to give them something to do here. And I think what they gave them was good.Chozon1 wrote: Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:59 am Now...he's a rebel. Dedicated to saving the galaxy, even at the cost of his own life. It's a complete character shift. Comparable, perhaps, to Han's heart change in A New Hope. Just took Finn longer.
Then ALL the fighters who went out in that scene made a pointless sacrifice, no?Chozon1 wrote: Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:59 am His sacrifice at that point would have meant nothing. The Empire at their throats, they just would have brought in another big gun in like twenty minutes.
No way they would have done that from a PR standpoint, but yes, it would have made the film so much better. What an incredible thing that would have been. I don't think we'll ever get a Star Wars film with that kind of hutzpah ever again, though. CERTAINLY not with a token character.ArcticFox wrote: Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:55 am The attempted self sacrifice at the end his was Finn's chance to actually DO something and bring his arc to a great close, but nope. Finn's presence in the movie had -zero- net effect on the story. Yes, he had an arc, but ultimately his efforts were completely pointless.
I would totally agree with your assessment, but also add that rather than cutting them you could write them a useful story. I mean, people (not me, but many) now love these characters. Give them something to DO. So little happened in the whole film, to be honest, that you could have cut it down to about an hour and it would have lost almost nothing. My (second) biggest gripe of the whole thing was the editing, actually. That plot had zero reason to last three hours. There was/is plenty of room to write a great, useful story line for all the characters. Because let's face it, you cut (rather than rewrite) Poe, Finn, and Rose, and you have what, a half hour of film left in its current form? I don't need another hour and a half of Rey being pouty on Luke's island.ArcticFox wrote: Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:55 amSee, that's the problem. If a character is doing something that doesn't serve the plot just to give them something to do, then you're better off cutting the character. This movie would have been much better if they'd completely cut Poe, Finn and Rose out of it because literally NOTHING any of them did served the plot. Well, Poe did lead the attack on the Star Destroyer at the beginning so it made sense to have him there, but Poe was never meant to be a big character. He was actually supposed to die in the crash on Jaku in Episode 7 but Abrams liked the actor's performance and had him written in more later.
Considering how much of the new films have pandered to a very particular (and outspoken) audience, that's hardly a surprise. It's sad, but it's very in line with Public Relations of today. The past two SW films have been essentially giant PR attempts (successful ones, too). As I said, I enjoyed TLJ, but I'm not going to pretend Porgs weren't created to sell toys or that the last scene with the kid with the broom wasn't a giant In-Film Star Wars commercial meant to manipulate people. They are telling a story less for story reasons and more for commercial purposes at this point. Otherwise we wouldn't have stuff like Rogue One and Solo (and the inevitable 12 other spin-offs coming soon to a theater near you). And Finn would definitely have died as a hero.ArcticFox wrote: Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:55 am It's like the film is moving away from the spirituality that made the early Star Wars films great.
Thing is, nobody knew about that plan (perhaps even that it was possible) except Holdo (Baggins) and Leia. For all Finn, Rey, Rose, and Poe knew, the Rebels escaped on the large transport or the rebellion died. This was, in fact, essentially preached to them by Leia and Holdo.ArcticFox wrote: A good point that's completely undermined by Holdo engaging the hyperdrive to disable the First Order fleet. What Rose did makes zero sense to me, because she basically handed the base over to the 1st Order. Could they have brought another big gun? Maybe, but that's more time the Resistance would have had to get away.
Not really. It was a longshot, but the only shot they saw (without being smart and talking to Holdo). In one go, Finn could save the rebellion, Rey, and allow himself an escape.ArcticFox wrote: The attempted self sacrifice at the end his was Finn's chance to actually DO something and bring his arc to a great close, but nope. Finn's presence in the movie had -zero- net effect on the story. Yes, he had an arc, but ultimately his efforts were completely pointless.
Luke said something to the effect of 'Snoke got to him first' in reference as to why Baby Ben had so much darkness in his heart. I could be misreading the intent, I guess.ArcticFox wrote: I don't think it was Snoke that turned Ben Solo to the dark side. Did they say that and I just missed it?
Part of me would like to argue this, as the very idea of balanced spirituality suggests light and dark in equal mix, which could be gray.ArcticFox wrote: Star Wars has always been a very clear epic allegory. Good vs. evil. Light vs. dark. The Force was not gray. (No, I don't give a fig about "grey Jedi" or any of that nonsense from non-canon sources.) This is what Yoda taught Luke way back on Dagobah. Introducing the moral ambiguity angle doesn't make Star Wars more sophisticated or complex. It just waters it down and makes it more mundane.
Which are, I would not argue, more influenced by modern morals. I understand what you mean, though.Dang that's a great quote. <3 Nothing from the newer movies comes close.ArcticFox wrote: "Look at me. Judge me by my side, do you? And well you should not. For my ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is. Life creates it. Makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter! You must feel the Force around you.. Between you, me, the rock. Everywhere. Even between the land and the ship."
Compare that with the FEEBLE way Luke tries to teach Rey. Rapping her on the knuckles with a reed. Saying nothing deep or meaningful about the Force but ranting about Jedi hubris... I mean, I get that Luke is bitter and broken by the betrayal and I'm okay with all that... but that doesn't excuse such watered down material. It's like the film is moving away from the spirituality that made the early Star Wars films great.
Perhaps so. In hindsight, no. As it bought Rey time. In foresight...yes. There was no real purpose to the battle.J.K. Riki wrote: Then ALL the fighters who went out in that scene made a pointless sacrifice, no?
OK. At the risk of being offensive, I'm going to be brutally honest for a moment.J.K. Riki wrote: Considering how much of the new films have pandered to a very particular (and outspoken) audience, that's hardly a surprise. It's sad, but it's very in line with Public Relations of today. The past two SW films have been essentially giant PR attempts (successful ones, too). As I said, I enjoyed TLJ, but I'm not going to pretend Porgs weren't created to sell toys or that the last scene with the kid with the broom wasn't a giant In-Film Star Wars commercial meant to manipulate people. They are telling a story less for story reasons and more for commercial purposes at this point. Otherwise we wouldn't have stuff like Rogue One and Solo (and the inevitable 12 other spin-offs coming soon to a theater near you). And Finn would definitely have died as a hero.
You're not wrong, and I'd definitely have liked a tighter story where Finn, Rose and Poe actually did have actions that impacted the plot. I just suggested they be cut because the movie was so long. If they could've been worked in and kept the runtime under 2 hours, I'd have been thrilled.J.K. Riki wrote: Sun Jan 07, 2018 2:14 am I would totally agree with your assessment, but also add that rather than cutting them you could write them a useful story. I mean, people (not me, but many) now love these characters. Give them something to DO. So little happened in the whole film, to be honest, that you could have cut it down to about an hour and it would have lost almost nothing. My (second) biggest gripe of the whole thing was the editing, actually. That plot had zero reason to last three hours. There was/is plenty of room to write a great, useful story line for all the characters. Because let's face it, you cut (rather than rewrite) Poe, Finn, and Rose, and you have what, a half hour of film left in its current form? I don't need another hour and a half of Rey being pouty on Luke's island.
I'm not inclined to be fully on board with the political pandering, since I didn't really see any elements that struck me as particularly left of center per se. Female leaders in the Rebellion are nothing new (Mon Mothma, Leia Organa, Padme Amidalla) so that wasn't a switch, and so far Finn's relationship with Poe seems perfectly normal, despite efforts by some fans to ship them together. That said, I agree that the Porgs were meant to sell toys but that isn't really new either. Read up sometime on the story of how Kenner got the license to make Star Wars toys (There's a show on Netflix that goes into th at). Star Wars marketing toys has been a thing since 1977.J.K. Riki wrote: Sun Jan 07, 2018 2:14 am Considering how much of the new films have pandered to a very particular (and outspoken) audience, that's hardly a surprise. It's sad, but it's very in line with Public Relations of today. The past two SW films have been essentially giant PR attempts (successful ones, too). As I said, I enjoyed TLJ, but I'm not going to pretend Porgs weren't created to sell toys or that the last scene with the kid with the broom wasn't a giant In-Film Star Wars commercial meant to manipulate people. They are telling a story less for story reasons and more for commercial purposes at this point. Otherwise we wouldn't have stuff like Rogue One and Solo (and the inevitable 12 other spin-offs coming soon to a theater near you). And Finn would definitely have died as a hero.
I really hate it when that happens... and my mouse has a back button on the side that sometimes my thumb bumps and causes the same problem.Chozon1 wrote: Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:39 am OH MY GOSH I HAD A SUPER LONG REPLY AND THE FORUM DELETED IT BECAUSE IT TOOK ME SO LONG TO WRITE.
That's true, but they did see her perform the maneuver on their way to the planet. Actually, I didn't get the impression that the hyperdrive strike was part of the plan all along. I had the impression that she just came up with it on the spur of the moment, but I could be wrong.Chozon1 wrote: Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:39 am Thing is, nobody knew about that plan (perhaps even that it was possible) except Holdo (Baggins) and Leia. For all Finn, Rey, Rose, and Poe knew, the Rebels escaped on the large transport or the rebellion died. This was, in fact, essentially preached to them by Leia and Holdo.
Well remember, they were trying to buy time because they were hoping to receive help from other Resistance cells. At that point they were still hopeful.Chozon1 wrote: Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:39 am Also, as soon as the First Order knew the rebels were there...there was no escape. That facility had one entrance and was incredibly fortified. That's why the rebels went there, in the hopes they could use it as a new secret base after the FO thought they were destroyed. Buying time was worth beans. Even if they escaped to the planets surface, no one replied to their hails. They had no ships. They would have needed a magnificent MacGuffin to survive.
But that's just it: What is the net difference to the story having had Finn and Rose go on the mission? Imagine they'd just stayed on the ship the whole time and waited. What would be different? Well, DJ doesn't get the payoff. That's IT. They all still wind up in the old Rebel base on Crait, the ships are all still destroyed, Holdo would still have done the hyperdrive attack. I mean, you could argue that it sets up Rose's feelings for Finn leading her to save him form his suicide run, but that's an awfully small narrative payoff for such a huge amount of time spent on it. If it was just a mechanism for getting the two of them together, that could have been done in any number of other, more efficient, ways.Chozon1 wrote: Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:39 am Not really. It was a longshot, but the only shot they saw (without being smart and talking to Holdo). In one go, Finn could save the rebellion, Rey, and allow himself an escape.
Actually—given that the FO would not have been able to shoot down the Rebels ships without Rose and Finn screwing up and bringing back the wrong guy, who messed up the cloaking device transponder things—the story kind of hinges on them. In a negative way though. XD
Ah ok I'd forgotten that line. Not sure how it fits into Ben's story but I'll need to watch the movie again.Chozon1 wrote: Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:39 am Luke said something to the effect of 'Snoke got to him first' in reference as to why Baby Ben had so much darkness in his heart. I could be misreading the intent, I guess.
True, and it was satisfying to see them knocked off of the moral pedestal they were standing on, being all judgy as they were... but it doesn't really let the Resistance off the hook, since the idea is that they were dealing with shady characters to get their equipment. What I liked about the original trilogy is that they strongly implied that the corporations and entities who produced the Rebels' equipment were actual companies that had joined up against the Empire. The X-wing was the Incom T-65 X-Wing fighter, and it was not in use by the Empire. That's just one example.Chozon1 wrote: Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:39 am Personally...I also took that to mean that the moral failing was on the part of the weapons dealers, not the rebellion (who probably didn't know). Finn and Rose both looked horrified, at any rate.
Of course you do. Otherwise this conversation would be boring!Chozon1 wrote: Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:39 am However, at the risk of sounding like a super fan...to this too, I have an answer.
Haha fair enough. I haven't seen much of the Clone Wars material so I can't comment on that either way.Chozon1 wrote: Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:39 am For one, Yoda had like...twenty years to learn the spiritual sides of the force. I don't know if you've seen the Clone Wars cartoon (which is canon now, as characters are referenced within the movies), but there are actually several episodes that deal with this. Yoda is basically warned from beyond the grave that there is a lot he doesn't know about the Living Force, and he must learn it if the future is to have any hope. He goes on a spiritual quest and stuff, which timeline wise takes places just before the third prequel.
Ostensibly, this explains the differences between “Wise and powerful” OG Yoda and “I'ma flip around like a pixie and lightsaber you” prequel Yoda. But that's just a super-fan's defense and I know it.
Like ACTUAL dark side? I didn't get that impression...Chozon1 wrote: Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:39 am Secondly...the movie was about Luke's redemption too. When Renny went darkside, Luke blamed himself. It broke his faith. Everything he believed, everything he had learned about the Force, Luke taught Ben, and—in Luke's mind—it caused him to go Darkside.
That's a good point, and it's a good moral lesson. My gripe is with the overall depth though.Chozon1 wrote: Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:39 am Mind, both Yoda and Rey chastised him for this wrong belief (which is, in a world of media filled with 'I went evil but it's not my fault', incredibly cool), and said it was Kylo's own decisions which lead him to evil.
Yeah I'm completely cool with Luke's story arc here. I know a lot of people complain about it (including Mark Hamil himself) but it made sense to me.Chozon1 wrote: Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:39 am But at this point Luke had cut himself off from the force. He had hidden himself away in the farthest corner of the galaxy so the knowledge would die with him. It had spawned Kylo Ren. It had spawned Vader. It had spawned the Emperor.
He didn't teach Rey about the spiritual elements because he didn't believe them anymore. He taught Rey the atheistic force, basically. How to move rocks and feels the world, but not the important (dangerous) spiritual elements. “You saw the dark, and went right towards it. It offered you something you needed, and you didn't even try to resist.”
Then Yoda showed up and basically told Luke to get over himself. Yes, pride was the downfall of the Jedi, and perhaps even himself. But that was a personal fault. Not a flaw in the Jedi belief system.
See, for me the original story made Jedi feel like Space Clerics. Even Tarkin once referred to the Jedi Order as a religion. The new approach makes it feel a lot more like Space Wizards. It's a power, but not spiritual.Chozon1 wrote: Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:39 am Which is why there's a sea-change between grumpy Luke in the beginning of the movie, and return of the Jedi at the end. Luke had regained his faith by reopening himself to the Force. It's why he pulled an Obi-Wan instead of just dying. “I will not be the last Jedi”. Gave me the shivers. <3
Strange as it sounds coming from a Christian, it's my hope that Rey will actually be taught from beyond the grave by Luke, Yoda, Obi-Wan, and Vader in the final movie. Either way, I was actually pleased at the spirituality in this.
Fair point, but it's my contention that you'll start seeing all of those kinds of things going forward. I'm willing to bet better than even odds that Finn and Poe get together in the next film. I don't want that, but a part of me is surprised, (albeit pleasantly) that it didn't happen in Episode 8.Chozon1 wrote: Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:39 am You and Arctic both suggest that the new SW movies are gravely influenced by modern moral bankruptcy and corporate gluttony.
I would suggest this does a disservice to the film makers. They were showed remarkable restraint, from a moral standpoint. I would suggest that, if your posits were true:
Finn would remain Rey's love interest, with a Kylo triangle.
The darkside, instead of being composed of evil people doing evil things for their own greedy purposes, would be revealed to be misunderstood and abused; with evil jedi's—not sith. But 'good' jedi's are actually evil—who forced people into the darkside from a spirit of dogma.
Rose would not have lost her sister, but her wife.
The real bad guys would not be an evil army of mind-wiped soldiers, but the corporate businessmen who created that army to make more money. Also, Snoke would be revealed to be Donald Trump's clone, with the real Trump using funds filched from the unfortunate to build a Death Star (the actual size of a star).
Thing is...this is Disney. Their cartoons and kid shows affirm homosexuality. The MCU is increasingly morally ambiguous, and fatalistically humanistic.
And then there's Star Wars. An equitably ancient franchise loved for almost 40 years. And the good guys are good, and encouraged to be good. The bad guys are bad, and encouraged towards redemption. In the midst of a soul-sucking life-breaking universe, ruled by an empire smushing happiness, creativity, and niceness in general under size-13 fascist boots, you have good people fighting for hope, and freedom, and a new dawn. And willing to pay for that freedom with their own blood, even though they may never see it.
That's a crazy positive attitude.
I feel like it was the plan after they learned they were running out of fuel. As they had to rig the ships up to be cloaked and all. Neither of them seemed surprised by it...but it could have been something Holdo came up with on the spot to try and save the rebellion.ArcticFox wrote: That's true, but they did see her perform the maneuver on their way to the planet. Actually, I didn't get the impression that the hyperdrive strike was part of the plan all along. I had the impression that she just came up with it on the spur of the moment, but I could be wrong.
I need to see the movie again, I think. Because I remember them basically getting a 'No U' in return hails, when they got anything. No one wanted to touch them after the Death Planet incident.ArcticFox wrote: Well remember, they were trying to buy time because they were hoping to receive help from other Resistance cells. At that point they were still hopeful.
Efficiency is not always effective when crafting a narrative. Nor is it always the way reality works, as anyone who has ever gone to the DMV knows.ArcticFox wrote: But that's just it: What is the net difference to the story having had Finn and Rose go on the mission? Imagine they'd just stayed on the ship the whole time and waited. What would be different? Well, DJ doesn't get the payoff. That's IT. They all still wind up in the old Rebel base on Crait, the ships are all still destroyed, Holdo would still have done the hyperdrive attack. I mean, you could argue that it sets up Rose's feelings for Finn leading her to save him form his suicide run, but that's an awfully small narrative payoff for such a huge amount of time spent on it. If it was just a mechanism for getting the two of them together, that could have been done in any number of other, more efficient, ways.
I meant Luke thought it caused Ben to go darkside. Not Luke. Heck no. I would have left the theater if they had turned Luke darkside. Not even kidding.ArcticFox wrote:Like ACTUAL dark side? I didn't get that impression...
I hope not, honestly. I'd not keep watching the series. I don't need another agenda pushed on me, especially in the hollow shell of a once beloved franchise.ArcticFox wrote: Fair point, but it's my contention that you'll start seeing all of those kinds of things going forward. I'm willing to bet better than even odds that Finn and Poe get together in the next film. I don't want that, but a part of me is surprised, (albeit pleasantly) that it didn't happen in Episode 8.
Episode 8 was, for me, Star Wars saying good-bye to my generation of fans and letting us know that we're parting as friends, no hard feelings, but Star Wars can't remain what it was before. What worked in the '70s and what worked in the '90s isn't what works now. They can't please everybody, so they're gonna move on to those they CAN please, which is modern audiences, for better or for worse.
I'm not mad at Star Wars for this. I just feel like we had our divorce and we're gonna stay friends.
. Like Finn and Rose for instance, just a former stormtrooper and a random member of the resistance. I guess we've all (or at least I have) assumed someone has to be related to a Jedi or something to be force sensitive. Maybe it’s the high midichlorian count then 
.