Christ Centered Gamer

Much like the once well beloved and intelligent poet J. Timberlake said, 'I'm bringing 'OSAS' back.'

For those of you not aware of what I am talking about, OSAS stands for 'Once Saved, Always Saved' The belief that once you have been saved you are always saved and cannot ever lose that salvation no matter what you do, think, or say. I am personally under the belief that you are always saved and will never lose it. I know there are those out there who disagree with me.

So, prove me wrong...

I think since you're making the claim, the burden of proof is on you

No offense, but that post is the logical equivalent of "the Moon has a core made entirely out of fondant and strawberry jam. Prove me wrong."

Not that I'm saying your point is as outlandish as that, but I think you really ought to back it up to get the discussion rolling. There's a reason people are moving away from the OSAS idea.

Well said, my friend.

You ask for proof and I deliver.

Well, let's say that we didn't have salvation forever and that we could lose it by doing something. Well, I say that would go against the reason that Jesus came to die in the first place. He came so that we might have ETERNAL (notice that eternal means everlasting, neverending, forever) life, 'and have it abundantly.' (John 10:10) Jesus even said that he who believes in Him (Jesus) would have Eternal Life, (John 3:15,16,36, 5:24, 6:40,47) now if eternal mean forever, neverending and everlasting, then how could we lose something that is forever? How could we lose something of our soul, that never ends? That lasts forever?
Plus, if we say that we can lose eternal salvation, and Jesus says we can't, then we contradict what Jesus is saying. And who is more in the right, Jesus? or us? We are calling Jesus (the PERFECT Lamb of God) a liar, we are saying He is wrong, we are saying that we know more about salvation and matters of the soul than He does, the very person who died and made the idea of salvation possible. My apologies if I am being harsh, but, come on, we'd be calling Jesus a liar, the only Being who is perfect being called imperfect by those who are the most evil.

So, prove me wrong...

Also, the idea of the moon being filled with fondant and strawberry jam sounds amazing. I might try to prove that one day.

Much appreciated!

RedPlums wrote: Well, let's say that we didn't have salvation forever and that we could lose it by doing something. Well, I say that would go against the reason that Jesus came to die in the first place. He came so that we might have ETERNAL (notice that eternal means everlasting, neverending, forever) life, 'and have it abundantly.' (John 10:10) Jesus even said that he who believes in Him (Jesus) would have Eternal Life, (John 3:15,16,36, 5:24, 6:40,47) now if eternal mean forever, neverending and everlasting, then how could we lose something that is forever? How could we lose something of our soul, that never ends? That lasts forever?

I see what you're saying. My read on it is that we may be getting a different interpretation of the use of "eternal" here. From what I gather from your post (and please correct me if I'm wrong) you're saying that the term "eternal" implies that it's locked in, indelible, can't be changed or removed. Let's take a look at the verses you cited.

Beginning with John 10: 9,10

9 I am the door; by Me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
10 The thief cometh not but to steal and to kill and to destroy. I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

So here the Savior is comparing Himself to a door, which is the means by which someone can enter and find salvation. Notice however, He doesn't just say He's the way in... He's also the way out. This makes sense, because He will be the Judge of our eternal soul, and could very well find us unworthy.

John 5: 22

22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

Nowhere in these verses is it said that we're guaranteed salvation in life if we turn away.

John 3:14-17

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

These verses assure us that if we are followers of Christ, we will have everlasting life... but again nothing here suggests that a person cannot turn away.

John 15:36

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

This echoes the verses preceeding it.

John 5: 24

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Here again, it assures us of our eternal reward, but doesn't state that this reward can't be rejected.

John 6: 40

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6: 47

47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

So again, we're echoing what has been said before... Believe in Jesus Christ and gain everlasting life. It's awesome, but that's all it says.

RedPlums wrote: Plus, if we say that we can lose eternal salvation, and Jesus says we can't, then we contradict what Jesus is saying. And who is more in the right, Jesus? or us? We are calling Jesus (the PERFECT Lamb of God) a liar, we are saying He is wrong, we are saying that we know more about salvation and matters of the soul than He does, the very person who died and made the idea of salvation possible. My apologies if I am being harsh, but, come on, we'd be calling Jesus a liar, the only Being who is perfect being called imperfect by those who are the most evil.

That's only if we accept the interpretation that says the gift of everlasting life is irrevocable. For me personally, I don't find that to be very logical. It's like saying a person can convert, be baptized, and then go on to life a life of evil and indulgence, free of any eternal repercussions.

In fact, Jesus does raise that very question in one of His parables. Take a look at Luke 12: 42 - 48

42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?
43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

The faithful servant awaits his master's return, but the unworthy servant may have started out faithful, but turns against his master and is cut asunder.

Take a look at another parable, the one of the sower in Luke 8

Luke 8:5 - 8

5 A sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it.
6 And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture.
7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprang up with it, and choked it.
8 And other fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold. And when he had said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

He goes on to explain the symbolism in the verses that follow. The seeds that spring up sometimes wither even after they begin to grow.

There's a ton of parables that further expand on this, and I'd invite you to check it out. The Prodigal Son is a good one with a happy ending. Note in that story how the returned son is welcomed back because he returned on his own, and not from any previous guarantees.

RedPlums wrote: So, prove me wrong...

I don't want to prove you wrong. I just like friendly debate. We all have to do the best we can with our understanding of God's will in our lives. I think we can agree that we're meant to make a firm commitment to follow Jesus Christ and live according to His will to the very best of our ability, throughout our life. That makes this topic a fun academic discussion, but shouldn't be a hindrance to our living the Gospel, no matter which side one is on.

RedPlums wrote: Also, the idea of the moon being filled with fondant and strawberry jam sounds amazing. I might try to prove that one day.

Yeah not gonna lie, I think that would be a fantastic motive to resume the missions to the moon...

Yes, yes, yes, by Eternal I do mean locked in and unchangeable, but that's the idea of the word Eternal, or Forever, or Everlasting, it does not end, if it wasn't forever it wouldn't be eternal, if it wasn't unchangeable it wouldn't be eternal, if it wasn't everlasting it wouldn't be eternal.

You say that if Jesus is the way in, He is the way out, so, if a Christian suddenly decides he doesn't want to go to heaven and will take his chances without Jesus, what does he have to do to get rid of his salvation? Where in the Bible does it give us instructions on getting out of salvation and heaven?

Also, I did not use john 5:22 as a verse.

I didn't say people could not turn away from God or Jesus or the Bible, I simply state that they cannot lose their salvation. We see people turn away from God all the time, we see rejection of Jesus all over the world and media, anyone can reject or turn away from God or Jesus. But once you're saved, you're always saved.

Also, show me where in the new testament Jesus says that you can get rid of your salvation? Where does Jesus give specific instructions for the removal of your salvation? Many, many times He gives very specific instructions on how to receive salvation, but I've never read anywhere when He says how to remove it.

Sure a person could be saved and go on sinning doing whatever he/she wants. I'm sure it happens more often than we think. While they are saved forever, they won't get much for rewards I heaven, the Bible states that our obedience and works builds up treasures for us in heaven, the more obedient we are to God the more He will reward us. That is not to say that our obedience or works saves us, it does not, we are only saved by putting our faith in Jesus Christ. Not by works, not by baptism, not by prayer.
Also, God is not above punishing His children, He is our Father, He loves us like a father, but also like a father, He needs to discipline His children should they go astray, so, if a Christian is saved and then realizes that this is some sort of 'get-out-of-hell free' card and decides to go on living his/her life as before, God will bring judgement upon that person in his/her earthly life. Now, when that person gets to heaven, God will lovingly and happily welcome him/her to heaven with open arms. But while he/she is on earth God will be trying to push him/her towards the right path, and if it takes punishment for his/her sins, so be it. Just as a father needs to discipline his children for doing wrong things, so does God.

I would encourage you to look at these verses.

John 10:28,29
Eph. 1:3, 2:6, 4:30
Rom. 8:23
Col. 3:1-3
1 Cor. 3:10-15
1 Thess. 1:9,10, 5:8-10
1 Pet. 1:5
1John 1:7-9
Rom. 8:38-39

I was hoping you would comment on the messages in the parables I cited. They do clearly describe the fate of those who follow Christ, but then turn away.

RedPlums wrote:Yes, yes, yes, by Eternal I do mean locked in and unchangeable, but that's the idea of the word Eternal, or Forever, or Everlasting, it does not end, if it wasn't forever it wouldn't be eternal, if it wasn't unchangeable it wouldn't be eternal, if it wasn't everlasting it wouldn't be eternal.

Well that is true, but are you absolutely certain that eternal salvation begins with conversion, as opposed to a life successfully lived faithfully to the end?

RedPlums wrote: You say that if Jesus is the way in, He is the way out, so, if a Christian suddenly decides he doesn't want to go to heaven and will take his chances without Jesus, what does he have to do to get rid of his salvation? Where in the Bible does it give us instructions on getting out of salvation and heaven?

I didn't say it, it's in the Scriptures. I'm not sure why the Bible would give instructions on how to SHED one's salvation, but it does warn us that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, for example, is an unpardonable sin in Mark 3:28-30

28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.
30 Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.

I assure you, verse 31 doesn't say "But it's totally cool if he's already been saved."

RedPlums wrote: Also, I did not use john 5:22 as a verse.

I introduced that in support of my comments about Jesus being the Judge. I get to cite verses too, don't I?

RedPlums wrote: I didn't say people could not turn away from God or Jesus or the Bible, I simply state that they cannot lose their salvation. We see people turn away from God all the time, we see rejection of Jesus all over the world and media, anyone can reject or turn away from God or Jesus. But once you're saved, you're always saved.

So a person can be forced into Heaven against his/her will?

RedPlums wrote: Sure a person could be saved and go on sinning doing whatever he/she wants. I'm sure it happens more often than we think. While they are saved forever, they won't get much for rewards I heaven, the Bible states that our obedience and works builds up treasures for us in heaven, the more obedient we are to God the more He will reward us. That is not to say that our obedience or works saves us, it does not, we are only saved by putting our faith in Jesus Christ. Not by works, not by baptism, not by prayer.

Well that much is true, but again, OSAS suggests that a person can be taken up into Heaven even if they don't want to be.

RedPlums wrote: Also, God is not above punishing His children, He is our Father, He loves us like a father, but also like a father, He needs to discipline His children should they go astray, so, if a Christian is saved and then realizes that this is some sort of 'get-out-of-hell free' card and decides to go on living his/her life as before, God will bring judgement upon that person in his/her earthly life. Now, when that person gets to heaven, God will lovingly and happily welcome him/her to heaven with open arms. But while he/she is on earth God will be trying to push him/her towards the right path, and if it takes punishment for his/her sins, so be it. Just as a father needs to discipline his children for doing wrong things, so does God.

I don't agree that God punishes people on earth, at least not in a consistent manner. Tell me Hugh Hefner is suffering from disciplinary action from God. Tell me that every single person who has a life of suffering and pain deserved it. That's the problem, isn't it? It isn't really discipline if it isn't consistent. Sometimes good people suffer and bad people don't.

The first parable I cited above doesn't just describe lesser rewards for the unfaithful who turn away, but condemnation.

RedPlums wrote: I would encourage you to look at these verses.

John 10:28,29
Eph. 1:3, 2:6, 4:30
Rom. 8:23
Col. 3:1-3
1 Cor. 3:10-15
1 Thess. 1:9,10, 5:8-10
1 Pet. 1:5
1John 1:7-9
Rom. 8:38-39

I looked at them, and they're all verses that reference Salvation. Not sure how they apply to the specific topic at hand however. Might you be willing to elaborate a bit?

Not sure if I should jump in or not, since, for one of the first times since "the cataclysm," I now kind of have an actual dog in this fight.

ArchAngel wrote:Not sure if I should jump in or not, since, for one of the first times since "the cataclysm," I now kind of have an actual dog in this fight.

Meaning what?

ArchAngel is a non-believer

ccgr wrote:ArchAngel is a non-believer

I think he could certainly provide some unique input in this debate because of that, too! What do you think, ArchAngel? How would you feel about being a former Christian and learning (perhaps after you die) that, even after turning away and no longer believing, you're going to heaven anyway? If the OSAS theory is valid, that is. Or, alternatively, what would you think of a deity that determines your afterlife regardless of what you desire, or what your behavior would entail?

From a quick read, redplum, it seems that your claim is based solely upon your understanding of the word eternal. Can you answer some of the other arguments or provide new ones supporting OSAS?

How would you say you gain salvation? I say you believe in Jesus as your Savior and follow Him as your Lord. If you stop believing and following, you lose your salvation.


John 15:1-9
“I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.


Branches that bear no fruit are cut off. If we do not remain in Jesus, we are thrown into the fire and burned.

Salvation isn't just a ticket out of hell, it's so much more than that. It IS the abundant life. We live out our salvation now, even as we wait for it to become complete. Salvation is inseparable from sanctification. We are saved and being transformed into His likeness. You don't get one without the other.


Romans 11:17-24
But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. 19 Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.

Israel was cut off because of unbelief, Gentiles (all non-israelites) were grafted in (saved) but can be cut back out.

ArcticFox wrote:
Beginning with John 10: 9,10

9 I am the door; by Me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
10 The thief cometh not but to steal and to kill and to destroy. I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

So here the Savior is comparing Himself to a door, which is the means by which someone can enter and find salvation. Notice however, He doesn't just say He's the way in... He's also the way out. This makes sense, because He will be the Judge of our eternal soul, and could very well find us unworthy.

I don't think Jesus is saying He's the way out. Finding pasture isn't death and it sounds as if all the sheep come in and go out (and in and out, etc) And yes, He is the judge, but I still don't want to call Him the way out.

ArcticFox wrote:

Take a look at another parable, the one of the sower in Luke 8

Luke 8:5 - 8

5 A sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it.
6 And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture.
7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprang up with it, and choked it.
8 And other fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold. And when he had said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

He goes on to explain the symbolism in the verses that follow. The seeds that spring up sometimes wither even after they begin to grow.

There's a ton of parables that further expand on this, and I'd invite you to check it out. The Prodigal Son is a good one with a happy ending. Note in that story how the returned son is welcomed back because he returned on his own, and not from any previous guarantees.

Redplums, I'd really like a response on these two parables

My apologies for taking so long to reply, I was gone on a trip.

You ask for a reply on the parable, I answer.
Let me start off with how I understand the parable, I believe that the sower is an example of a Christian who is planting seeds in people by evangelizing. The plants are the outcomes of the evangelizing.
We have the first example of the seed, it is planted but nothing happens, it doesn't grow or produce anything. It just stays in the ground. Much like our modern day evangelist who might spread the Word and some people hear it but don't care or reject the Word and so they are not saved and thus they do not grow or produce any fruit.
We have the second example of the seed that was planted in the rocks, much like a person who hears the Word, is saved, but his or her own growth is stumped by their lack of a personal relationship with God, whatever the reason, they do no grow spiritually and so they slowly wither away.
The third example is of a person who hears the Word, is saved, but when that person begins his/her new life he/she is stumped by either their own sins, or Satan's doings (thus the mention of thorns) or their own family/friends.
The final example is of a person who hears the Word, is saved, and they end up being a Godly Christian, following His commands, growing spiritually and producing much fruit.
That is my interpretation of the parable.

The prodigal son was also mentioned, I think that proves my point. The son has always been the son, he was never not his father's son, yes he did leave his father and lived in sin, but when he came back he was still his son, and his father welcomed himm gladly with love and joy. When we are born again we are God's children, we may leave Him and turn away, but we will always be His children, and if we come back to Him, He will welcome us with gladness.

I don't know who Hugh Hefner is so I can't answer you on that one.
You say God does not punish us on earth, then why do we have pain? why do we have sickness? Why do we have death? It is a punishment for the sin that Adam and Eve committed, and punishment for our sins, that is not to say that we will always be punished for every sin we commit, if we are not saved we will get our ultimate punishment at the Judgement Seat of Christ, if we are saved, our sins will have been wiped clean when we get to the Judgement Seat and we will pass on into heaven. Also, every hardship isn't punishment, I didn't say that, take the story of the blind man in John, the Pharisees asked who had sinned that he might be born blind, and Jesus said no one had sinned to cause him to be born blind, he was born blind so that Jesus could heal him and be glorified. Our hardships may not all be punishment for sins, God may be using them to teach us or to bring glory and honor to Him or for some other purpose.

Yes, the idea of OSAS does imply someone can go into heaven against their will. But, really, when you get to heaven, do you honestly think you'd like to leave and go to a place of eternal pain and separation?

You may cite verses, I was just confused since that was listed amongst the ones I used. My apologies!

The Bible does not give instructions on getting rid of your salvation, if our salvation cannot be lost then it would make sense that God would not give us instruction on how to lose it.

I don't understand how the example of an unforgivable sin that was said before is of relevance to our conversation, perhaps someone could enlighten me?

Also, ArchAngel I am fine If you want to voice an opinion, this is open to everyone.

RedPlums wrote:My apologies for taking so long to reply, I was gone on a trip.

Hey there's no need to apologize. We do this for the fun of it when time permits.

RedPlums wrote: You ask for a reply on the parable, I answer.
Let me start off with how I understand the parable, I believe that the sower is an example of a Christian who is planting seeds in people by evangelizing. The plants are the outcomes of the evangelizing.

Certainly. In fact, The Savior even goes on to explain the meaning, in much the same way you do. IN verse 11, He says "Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God." Look at the nuances though...

RedPlums wrote: We have the first example of the seed, it is planted but nothing happens, it doesn't grow or produce anything. It just stays in the ground. Much like our modern day evangelist who might spread the Word and some people hear it but don't care or reject the Word and so they are not saved and thus they do not grow or produce any fruit.

Right. In verse 12 Jesus says "Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved."

What's interesting here is that He is very specific in saying the Devil takes the word from them... An interesting subject for another thread sometime, I think.

RedPlums wrote: We have the second example of the seed that was planted in the rocks, much like a person who hears the Word, is saved, but his or her own growth is stumped by their lack of a personal relationship with God, whatever the reason, they do no grow spiritually and so they slowly wither away.

Sort of. In verse 13 Jesus explains "They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away."

So I'd say that's based on a lack of faith, or perhaps a lack of true commitment. Weakness. It's easy to be incredibly pumped up with enthusiasm when you first convert, but the world is not an easy place to be a Christian in sometimes, and we can fall away. Look at what He said... They received the word, but they fell away. There it is, plain as day, my brother.

RedPlums wrote: The third example is of a person who hears the Word, is saved, but when that person begins his/her new life he/she is stumped by either their own sins, or Satan's doings (thus the mention of thorns) or their own family/friends.

This one is similar to the one before, except that in the earlier example, we see people whose foundation was weak to begin with. This one talks about people who were strong at first, but were lured away by earthly temptation. He says, in verse 14, "And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection."

RedPlums wrote: The final example is of a person who hears the Word, is saved, and they end up being a Godly Christian, following His commands, growing spiritually and producing much fruit.
That is my interpretation of the parable.

Yep, as Jesus says in verse 15, "But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience."

So your interpretation isn't wrong, but I would point out that the parable does make it pretty clear that it is possible to become a follower of Christ, but still fall away through weakness or lack of commitment. So yes indeed, falling away is a thing.

RedPlums wrote: The prodigal son was also mentioned, I think that proves my point. The son has always been the son, he was never not his father's son, yes he did leave his father and lived in sin, but when he came back he was still his son, and his father welcomed himm gladly with love and joy. When we are born again we are God's children, we may leave Him and turn away, but we will always be His children, and if we come back to Him, He will welcome us with gladness.

That's all true, but look at it closely... The father received him in forgiveness only after the son came back repentant. It wasn't automatic, and had the son not returned home to seek forgiveness, he'd have continued on, fallen, forever. Of course we can return to the fold if we fall away, and that's the lesson of the Prodigal Son, but it's just as important to understand the necessity of that act of repentance.

RedPlums wrote: I don't know who Hugh Hefner is so I can't answer you on that one.

He's the founder of Playboy.

RedPlums wrote: You say God does not punish us on earth, then why do we have pain? why do we have sickness? Why do we have death? It is a punishment for the sin that Adam and Eve committed, and punishment for our sins,

On this, we have a doctrinal disagreement, I'd say. My church doesn't teach that we're punished for Adam's transgressions. There's suffering in the world because it is a fallen, imperfect world. We can agree to disagree on the finer points though, since that's kind of a tangent to the OSAS discussion.

RedPlums wrote: that is not to say that we will always be punished for every sin we commit, if we are not saved we will get our ultimate punishment at the Judgement Seat of Christ, if we are saved, our sins will have been wiped clean when we get to the Judgement Seat and we will pass on into heaven. Also, every hardship isn't punishment, I didn't say that, take the story of the blind man in John, the Pharisees asked who had sinned that he might be born blind, and Jesus said no one had sinned to cause him to be born blind, he was born blind so that Jesus could heal him and be glorified. Our hardships may not all be punishment for sins, God may be using them to teach us or to bring glory and honor to Him or for some other purpose.

That's true. Sometimes suffering and hardship is to our ultimate benefit because we're strengthened by it if we remain faithful. Sometimes it's because, when we're faithful followers of Christ, we gain certain blessings and protections that are withdrawn when we turn away from Him. That isn't the same as a directed punishment however.

RedPlums wrote: Yes, the idea of OSAS does imply someone can go into heaven against their will. But, really, when you get to heaven, do you honestly think you'd like to leave and go to a place of eternal pain and separation?

The problem is it's basically saying "Yeah they'd be forced to go, but it's so great there they'll be thankful for it later" and that's incongruent with everything we learn from Scripture. Heaven is a reward, where we lay up our treasures by living the way we should. It's not a prison, nor is it a gilded cage. Every single person who is damned eternally will be a person who chose it, eyes wide open.

RedPlums wrote: You may cite verses, I was just confused since that was listed amongst the ones I used. My apologies!

No worries at all.

RedPlums wrote: The Bible does not give instructions on getting rid of your salvation, if our salvation cannot be lost then it would make sense that God would not give us instruction on how to lose it.

Agreed.

RedPlums wrote: I don't understand how the example of an unforgivable sin that was said before is of relevance to our conversation, perhaps someone could enlighten me?

Because it's a sin that can certainly be committed by someone who's already been saved. In fact, there's a pretty revolting website where some guy decides to post videos of people denying the Holy Spirit on camera. Many of them started off as baptized Christians. Think they're still saved after committing the unpardonable sin?

I'm beginning to think that we're arguing just for the sake of arguing. Hmmm...

Well, let me start this off by saying that a person needs to consider that God loves us so much that He gave His Son to buy us back from our sin. His love overshadows everything else and nothing that there is nothing we could ever do to cause this salvation to be lost. To say that we could lose salvation is to say the we are in control of our own salvation and that the ultimate sacrifice that Jesus did is of no effect.
A Person who willingly, humbly, repents of sin and turns towards the cross, trusting Christ as their Savior, will be saved (Acts 16:31. John 6:37, John 14:6). That salvation is once and for all, eternal and secure. Those who truly trust in Christ are saved once, and saved always.
If because of your sinful deeds or lack of good deeds you lose your eternal security then your good deeds would become part of your salvation, something that Ephesians 2:8-9 clearly disproves. This would also place a burden on oneself, and one would always have to be trying to do enough good to outweigh our sin. To deny eternal security in such a way is to support a "Faith-Plus-Works" salvation.

I think we must leave out the two parables that are aforesaid, we interpret those differently and thus our arguments and answers will never satisfy the other. Maybe you agree with me on this?

Two of the devil's most cunning devices is to first convince men/women who are seeking to find eternal life and salvation that they can go to heaven by doing good works and earning salvation. Second is to misrepresent salvation by persuading them they can lose their salvation. It is one of the worse false teachings that the devil has made man a party too. Satan has done so well in this that people believe that if they do not live right, or if they falter or wain in their faith, they could lose their salvation. In other words, God will cast them out and withdraw His grace and mercy. What loving God would do that?

What kind of Father would the Lord be is He made a plane wherein those who put their faith and trust in Jesus would have no assurance of whether they were truly saved or not. What kind of life would a child have who did not know if he was a part of the family? Good one day and he's in, sins the next and he's out? One day his Father loved him, the next He didn't. The child would be an emotional and psychological wreck. The fact is, if you put your faith in Jesus Christ as our Lord & Savior, you became a child of God and were born again into His heavenly family. God tells us that in John 1:12-13.
God clearly tells that, regardless of your behavior, once you are born again, by God Himself, just like being born in an earthly family you are ALWAYS going to be a member of that family and there is nothing that you or they can do to change that! You were born into that family, nothing can change that, you can't decide to be born into your neighbor's family instead. It is the same with God's family. If you are in Jesus, you are a part of the family an you can experience all the peace and security that He wants all of His children to enjoy.

Ah, and here I thought this was a Pokemon ORAS topic. XD

I at first was going to type out some fairly big post about this and that, which I suppose I can still do if you want.
Though I want you to think this one through yourself... from both angles.

If you don't mind doing so RedPlums, I would like you to read through the book of Matthew,
all while keeping an eye open for verses that you think support OSAS, and also verses that you think go against OSAS.
Analyse and compare those verses and let me know how it goes! ^-^
How does that sound?