Christian Vs. Secular

[Drewsov]

Oh, undoubtably they are. I have no qualms about saying that, and I also can say that I found the same site, and decided to do more digging. That site pulled quotes from another, more reputable site, which had an interview with the lead singer on it. Interesting, to say the least.

However, one thing that I absolutely agree with that, as you put it, "laughable" website on is the band's fusion of religion. And the only reason I spoke out about it is that I'm sick and tired of bands misrepresenting themselves (or being misrepresented as) as Christians. I do not believe that POD is a Christian band, any more than I believe that Creed is a Christian band (or its lead singer, Scott Stapp is a Christian). Simple as that.

[DarthDapor]

Please, Darth. Enlighten us as to how you see secular music.

ok here's my view of it...there's christian music...and there's secular music...

Christian music: involves God
Secular music: doesn't involve god

Hell: doesn't involve god

Secular music: hell

do I need to make that any clearer?

[Deepfreeze32]

That's a crude analogy to say the least ...

[DarthDapor]

I'd like to hear you explain that...

[Deepfreeze32]

Just because Hell dosen't involve god, and Secular music dosen't involve God, dosen't mean you can combine the two without significant evidence to support your theroy.

[DarthDapor]

well then that should make it easy to disprove shouldn't it?

but I'll play along..you've made a good point there...

I guess the only proof I have is seeing what living life is like when you don't include God... so really if music doesn't include something about God...what does it include? If they don't acknowledge God isn't that the same thing as separating yourself from Him? Haven't the demons in hell separated from God forever?

if you don't like my opinion here all I have to say is this: disprove it...

[mlr1992]

Some secular bands sing about war and how it affects everyone, they sing about their views on current events, they sing about love, they sing about what they have on their mind. Are you saying that's bad?

[DarthDapor]

are you?

Thats actually quite a broad generalization...I think you know what I said...you just want me to say more...

now since you want me to look at it from a broader point of view I will...
A)are any of the artists helping to solve the issues and not just complaining about it?
B)if they're living life apart from God what do the live for instead?
C)what do they say about war? what do they say about current events? what do they say about love? and what exactly is on their mind? does that reflect God in any way?

sorry dude...your trying to distract from my central point here...that simply put it's music without God...

[Drewsov]

It's not music without God. Simply put, Darth, you need to read the lyrics and understand what the singer is saying. Music is about the human experience, and part of that equation is worship and part of that equation is living. And saying that singing about life is singing about life without God is a horrible generalization, and one that is represented by a particularly bad analogy. That is, unless you view our mortal plain as Hell, and maybe Las Vegas as the City of Dis. Which is a literary reference, if you need me to spell it out for you.

[DarthDapor]

It's not music without God. Simply put, Darth, you need to read the lyrics and understand what the singer is saying. Music is about the human experience, and part of that equation is worship and part of that equation is living. And saying that singing about life is singing about life without God is a horrible generalization, and one that is represented by a particularly bad analogy. That is, unless you view our mortal plain as Hell, and maybe Las Vegas as the City of Dis. Which is a literary reference, if you need me to spell it out for you.

no, your not getting by with that...there's only two kinds of life...the one that is with God...and the one that is without...I never made that generalization that singing about life is singing about life without God...if I did point it out and I'll correct it...

...is our mortal plain really that far from Hell?

[TripExistence]

The problem with your reasoning Darth is that you're forgetting that God created hell in the first place. God didn't intend for humans to go to hell, but unfortunately we fall short. Music can be an expression of that, no matter how weird that sounds, even if the band is not Christian.

The other thing that God has created is us, in His image. God has given us a desire to create, improve, make new things. That's where music comes in. All music, when Christian or secular is an expression of the passion for creation that God has given us.

You're thinking, what about the lyrics? No matter how many deeper meanings you have, lyrics aren't particularly the point. You see, just because you hear a secular song with sensuous lyrics doesn't mean you are actively participating in something sinful (Unless...never mind, we'll leave that for the mature discussions).

Case in point, I went on a blink-182 listening binge today. I'm well aware of the fact that many of their songs have (sometimes explicit) sexual references and oftentimes coarse language. Now look at these lyrics:

God has a master plan
And I guess
I am in his demand
Please save me this time I cannot run
And I'll see you when this is done

'Not Now' - blink-182

You cannot say that everything that comes out of the mouths of those that are not saved. It's all part of the experience.

And, just to clarify things, what makes a band secular? There are countless numbers of 'Christian' bands that have had mainstream success, but never mention God by name. Are they going to hell because they've separated themselves from Him?

[Drewsov]

Darth, my personal view is that music is music. There is no Christian music and there is no secular music. It is all just music. A band's message might not be for me, but it might be for someone else. And even if I don't agree with all that a band says about life, it can raise some interesting points and make me think.

If you can't tell, I take a very analytical view to the music I listen to. I also look for refinement and innovation in music. Unfortuately, many Christian bands don't really do anything new or special, but simply repeat what's popular on the market. That isn't to say that I don't listen to music that's dubbed Christian, but it is to say that I'm very selective in my listening choices.

Now, let me bring this facet up. What if a band is marketed to the mainstream but its members are Christian (e.g., U2)? And what if the reverse happened, where a band was marketed to a Christian audience but was really secular in its beliefs (e.g., Evanescence, Creed)? See, then you'd be listening to rock that really wasn't Christian, but secular, and you might not know it because of the way that it was fed to you. And still you'd argue like this.

I've said it many times, and I'll say it again. I've found God in dark places. That includes music. That includes books. God can use the works of man to speak to you. Why should I eliminate any music that isn't deemed Christian by you or the media from my life? Do you know what that would reduce my CD collection to? From about 400 albums to about 15, maybe 20, pretty good discs with several standouts. That's not the point, but I'm just saying.

[DarthDapor]

should I really go through this all...yeah...maybe we can come to some sort of understanding...but I will never understand why I'll answer your questions when you never answer mine...

The problem with your reasoning Darth is that you're forgetting that God created hell in the first place. God didn't intend for humans to go to hell, but unfortunately we fall short. Music can be an expression of that, no matter how weird that sounds, even if the band is not Christian.

so basically it's ok to go to hell, and sing about it? Here's something I have to say about hell... ...I gone through too much of it in my life emotionally to not want God with me for the rest of it...Do you know what makes us the most vulnerable to hell IMO? It's life away from God...

The other thing that God has created is us, in His image. God has given us a desire to create, improve, make new things. That's where music comes in. All music, when Christian or secular is an expression of the passion for creation that God has given us.

I don't really want to argue with you on this...mostly because I have a rather unique interpretation of the phrase "in His image" which I understand is one that is likely to clash with yours...if I wanted to I could go into further detail and perhaps dispel your claims here...but I won't.

You're thinking, what about the lyrics? No matter how many deeper meanings you have, lyrics aren't particularly the point. You see, just because you hear a secular song with sensuous lyrics doesn't mean you are actively participating in something sinful (Unless...never mind, we'll leave that for the mature discussions).

here's something I understand about music...lyrics are in place to appeal to those who don't want to take the time to learn music themselves...I do believe thats a fact..that not everyone can relate to the instrumentals (e.g. not EVERYONE is into screaming guitar solos and understands the effort it takes to learn).

so really lyrics are a message to anyone and everyone who listens. so if the message contains sexually explicit material(For the Record: I'd also point out you said it not me)...then you are hearing the message...the propaganda...the lies...

(and unless what? do you want to say it over pm?)

Case in point, I went on a blink-182 listening binge today. I'm well aware of the fact that many of their songs have (sometimes explicit) sexual references and oftentimes coarse language. Now look at these lyrics:

God has a master plan
And I guess
I am in his demand
Please save me this time I cannot run
And I'll see you when this is done

'Not Now' - blink-182

blink-182 is not the best example...but you were probably counting on me not having heard any of their songs...which was wrong in the first place but never mind that...just let me say that the example they set is a sacrilege.

You cannot say that everything that comes out of the mouths of those that are not saved. It's all part of the experience.

ummm fragment there first sentence...what am I saying about those that are not saved? What's part of the experience? eh? what experience? you probably need to rephrase that one...

And, just to clarify things, what makes a band secular? There are countless numbers of 'Christian' bands that have had mainstream success, but never mention God by name. Are they going to hell because they've separated themselves from Him?

here's the biggest problem with Christianity in America: It's too easy to be a Christian. All you have to do is say your a Christian...very few people will hold you accountable to the fact that you claim to be a Christian.

if you look elsewhere in this world you see others who lose everything to follow Christ. They'll lose their family, their jobs, their houses, even their lives. But what would most of them give to have a Bible? I know it sounds weird...because I'm sure if your a Christian in America it's almost guaranteed you'll have a Bible...but really now..what would they give just to have a Bible? I've seen their need first hand...and it confirms that this is one of the biggest problems with America right now.

Darth, my personal view is that music is music. There is no Christian music and there is no secular music. It is all just music. A band's message might not be for me, but it might be for someone else. And even if I don't agree with all that a band says about life, it can raise some interesting points and make me think.

How can you say there is no difference? The only way I can personally see music as "just music" is if there were no lyrics at all...but that wasn't good enough for some people...

If you can't tell, I take a very analytical view to the music I listen to. I also look for refinement and innovation in music. Unfortuately, many Christian bands don't really do anything new or special, but simply repeat what's popular on the market. That isn't to say that I don't listen to music that's dubbed Christian, but it is to say that I'm very selective in my listening choices.

This I know from our last Christian vs. Secular discussion...but really though...complaining doesn't solve the problem...

Now, let me bring this facet up. What if a band is marketed to the mainstream but its members are Christian (e.g., U2)? And what if the reverse happened, where a band was marketed to a Christian audience but was really secular in its beliefs (e.g., Evanescence, Creed)? See, then you'd be listening to rock that really wasn't Christian, but secular, and you might not know it because of the way that it was fed to you. And still you'd argue like this.

it's not up to me to decide whether a band is truly Christian scott. I only decide what their message is and if it is appropriate. thats it. So yes, I do listen to "Crossover" bands like switchfoot, hawk nelson (a bit), demon hunter, and others...frankly I don't care if their saved or not...they delivered the message(s) whether they agreed with it or not...there are a select few bands that I do consider literally gifted by God in their messages, talents, and music...but thats for another time...

I've said it many times, and I'll say it again. I've found God in dark places. That includes music. That includes books. God can use the works of man to speak to you. Why should I eliminate any music that isn't deemed Christian by you or the media from my life? Do you know what that would reduce my CD collection to? From about 400 albums to about 15, maybe 20, pretty good discs with several standouts. That's not the point, but I'm just saying.

As for finding God in dark places...you must well know I've never understood that about you. So I'll just say what I have on my mind at the moment...My God is not a dark God...

as for your cd collection...I am actually going to have to put some scripture here (but don't worry, because as you said that's not the point)

6Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?"

17"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."

18"Which ones?" the man inquired.

Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, 19honor your father and mother,'[d] and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'[e]"

20"All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still lack?"

21Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

22When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.

23Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

25When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?"

26Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

27Peter answered him, "We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?"

28Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother[f] or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life. 30But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first.

so in the end...you really have to decide for yourselves people...whats more important...God...or music...

I think we can end on that unless anyone has more to say.

[Drewsov]

I've got more to say. And you did miss the point on my last statement. I would gladly give up everything for Christ, and I have lost much just to keep a continued relationship with God. There's a lot you don't know about me, Darth, things that I will not share simply because I have a need to keep me for me. I am not a person who says things idly, even if I do goof around a bit. Everything that I say seriously, I say with a purpose. Seeing God in the dark is akin to seeing a flashlight pierce through the pitchest of blacks. How would I know this? I've been through my own hells. I have fallen down wailing and crying out. I have spent hours lost in thought or staring into space, trying to process everything by myself. And I did this for two years. Not to mention everything that came before. I was an angry child. And I was angry for a reason. I believe that I've told you a little of what I went through, and it seems to me that we do have some things in common there. But I have my own experiences. And so God has made himself evident to me in ways that may not make sense to you, and I simply ask that you do not question that but accept it for what it is. You said that your God isn't a dark God. Nor is mine, but we can agree that God is omnipresent, omnipotent. Thus God can be the Light in the darkness.

The reason I asked why I should eliminate what isn't deemed as Christian from my life is simply this: I see the need for God in everything, and I praise him in all that I do and in all of my life. And I am human. I stumble. But when I listen to music, when I play an instrument, I feel a spiritual connection that I can't describe. And so, while I'm not going to go off and start listening to Cradle of Filth or Malice or anything like that, I will most certainly listen to what fills my life with song, with what is the soundtrack of my life. And if God asks me to drop it all, then I will.

Now, I will say this about lyricism. It is not supplemental to the music, as you seem to believe. Lyricism is poetry, and if anything, historically, music was designed to accompany words. It's not about appreciation of anything. It's simply about understanding.

Now, you do talk about sexuality in music, and while I do agree with part of what you say, there's another part of me that doesn't at all. This is simply because humans are sexual beings. If a person is singing a song that's not about sex, then chances are, it's about love. Most songs are about love, in some form or another. And the view that you take still doesn't explain songs like Bruce Springsteen's "Reno" which is sexually explicit, yet is not in the way that you think. There's a meaning there. I'm still figuring it out (that all of the sin is hollow? that the pleasure of the flesh doesn't fill the hole that is left in the soul? something like that...), but there's a meaning all right.

And once again, in regards to lyricism, what do you say about the blues, folk, or even vocal genres? Genres that rely on the voice almost as much as they do on the communicating that the instrument does (or lack thereof, in terms of vocals). You seem to forget B.B. King, Eric Clapton, Bob Dylan, Neil Young, or Muddy Waters. You seem to forget that those artists used their voices as deftly as they used their guitars, and they told stories while doing it. I can never forget the guitar riff from Layla, nor can I forget the lyrics to that song and what they mean and what they have meant to me. Part of the magic of lyricism is that they can be different things to different people. That is a wonderful thing. Even if the singer's voice makes you cringe, you cannot deny that there is a power to the voice that is as palpable as in that caterwaul guitar solo that you so crave. For every song that you condemn, I can turn around and see appropriate social commentary, or thoughts on the culture at large. And this is without factoring in theological ideas. Bring that into the mix, though, and we'll have fun.

[DarthDapor]

well I think we can agree to disagree now...