I'm Bringing 'OSAS' back!

[Sstavix]

You can't lose your salvation like you lose your keys. But you can reject your salvation (and heaven) by cutting yourself off from God.

Very succinctly put. I agree.

[ArcticFox]

Indeed. Very good post.

[ChickenSoup]

Would you make a distinction between people who say "you know, I just don't know anymore" and give up the faith slowly and subtly due to doubt and people who say "I reject my faith outright"?

And at that rate, between the latter and someone who doesn't outright reject god and faith as a concept but still consciously divorced themselves from Christianity, per se?

I've been doing a lot of thinking about it this week, and I'm curious for all of your input. I suppose I'm pondering if there is a line drawn in the sand at some point, and where that is.

[Sstavix]

Would you make a distinction between people who say "you know, I just don't know anymore" and give up the faith slowly and subtly due to doubt and people who say "I reject my faith outright"?

I would say that there is a distinction. The former is someone who may be having a "crisis of faith," as it were. They're confused about what they've heard and felt, and aren't sure what to believe any more. I've been there myself, so if there's anything you'd like to discuss, you can always send me a PM.

In the latter case, I'd say that the person has no doubt that God exists, but they're willing to raise their middle finger to the heavens and shout "screw you!" It's outright defiance of God that motivates them. It's possible that some of these people profess that they're atheists (in contrast to actual atheists, who aren't convinced that God exists), but are actually doing it in an act of rebellion, or because it's trendy, rather than something they truly believe in their hearts.

And at that rate, between the latter and someone who doesn't outright reject god and faith as a concept but still consciously divorced themselves from Christianity, per se?

Thomas Jefferson was a deist (not an atheist, despite what some might claim) who believed firmly in the messages and lessons the Bible contained. Also, Mahatma Gandhi famously said "I like your Christ, but I don't like your Christians." (I probably butchered that phrase, but you can look it up.) And, pulling from the LDS history, Joseph Smith even asked which Christian church to join and was told directly "none of them." So if you're willing to follow Christ and His messages, but have an issue with the churches, you're in some famous company. And there's nothing wrong with becoming an "nondenominational Christian." It's how I was raised, and something I adhered to for many years of my life.

As I said, if you want to talk about it, feel free to send me a PM. Take care!

[ArcticFox]

Would you make a distinction between people who say "you know, I just don't know anymore" and give up the faith slowly and subtly due to doubt and people who say "I reject my faith outright"?

That's a great question, and I'm really not sure. I guess that's a matter for Judgement Day, but I do think looking at the parable of the sower can give some insights, because Jesus does mention the cases where the sprouts start off strong, but are choked off later, as well as those that weren't firmly planted to begin with. I guess either one could apply in a case like what you're talking about. I don't see a distinction being made between someone falling away due to doubt, and someone who outright rejects the Gospel. Maybe there are other verses that do but off the top of my head I'm not sure. Maybe it gets into the stuff about being lukewarm.

I would say that there is a distinction. The former is someone who may be having a "crisis of faith," as it were. They're confused about what they've heard and felt, and aren't sure what to believe any more. I've been there myself, so if there's anything you'd like to discuss, you can always send me a PM.

I think the only problem there is it does say that being lukewarm doesn't turn out well...

Revelation 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

So I'm not sure it's really much different.

And at that rate, between the latter and someone who doesn't outright reject god and faith as a concept but still consciously divorced themselves from Christianity, per se?

Given that Jesus referred to Himself as the only way to the Father, I'd guess that it doesn't much matter whether one rejects God entirely or just Jesus as a part of the path. Either way, it's turning from the "way, the truth and the light."

I've been doing a lot of thinking about it this week, and I'm curious for all of your input. I suppose I'm pondering if there is a line drawn in the sand at some point, and where that is.

Yeah only the Savior can judge exactly where that line is... I'm sure not qualified. My reading of the New Testament feels like there's not a ton of wiggle room. I mean, there's always forgiveness when one repents... and it's better to be on the path to redemption than to be complacent even when we think we're fully squared away.

[RoosterOnAStick]

Yeah I pretty much agree with everything that has been said so far and have other things to add.

I do not believe in once saved always saved, or even that being saved is a discrete onetime event. It is a lifelong work in progress. Will we be saved I'm the end well, that's between each person and God. It's difficult to see, always in motion is the future.

This article goes into more detail on that, and honestly I find this more comforting than OSAS or constantly agonizing over whether or not I am 100% saved or not (always did feel to me like it was an all or nothing thing regardless of whether OSAS was true or not)...

https://oca.org/questions/scripture/heb ... -the-faith

It's always a work in progress and in flux. You could say we are schroedingers people since until the day of judgment one could say we are both living in sin against His will and being saved at the same time.

I have also been told over the years something to the effect of we are judged by the light that is in our hearts and what we do with what we have. However that takes shape is between a person and God but there is no list or hard and fast formula for such things. Besides, I think it was Dostoyevsky who once talked about how a faith forged in the fires of doubt is the strongest kind. At least, I think it was him who said it anyway.

Of course, it was also an admonishment for us (especially for Orhodox Christians) since to whom more is given more is expected. In other words, some random guy on a random island in the middle of the ocean who never has heard the gospel may easily be judged much less harshly than I would. Can't say for sure since I wouldn't even know where to begin on that but I do know as an Orthodox Christian more is expected of me since more has been given.

I admit I have my doubts, but lately it isn't that which has been my struggle but with laziness and sometimes just bringing myself to care at all. I'm sort of hoping to hang on enough and hope in God's mercy that I can get a C- for effort at least.

So for the one wrestling with their doubts I'd say they got more going for them cause at least it means they care and take these things seriously.

[BlockHeadLewie]

Read the entire thread (twice I think) just to make sure I made this post completely on topic. Having said that, please allow me to blow your minds!
I have been saved now for over two thousand years but didn't truly know it until about 31 years ago. I have been in churches all my life of various denominations (from Baptist to Catholic, Methodist to Mormon and etc) and can come to one easy conclusion: Christ Followers are in every denomination but not all people in those denominations are Christ Followers.
Christ Followers don't have any fear of losing Salvation (It is well with our souls!) Everyone else is still stuck "working out their salvation". Christ Followers already have the answer: Jesus Christ. He promised us The Holy Spirit and that promise was kept. ONLY The Holy Spirit knows how to unlock "The Door" and let Jesus in. ("Behold I stand at the door and knock...") Once we allow The Holy Spirit to unlock that door, then we can "Knock on Jesus" and enter in.
Now here comes my part in this topic: OSAS is a fact. So is any other point of view for that matter. The only point of view that is properly acceptable is God's. Who on these forums has that? Certainly not myself. Having the Mind of Christ isn't the same as knowing how to USE it properly! Each of us must come to terms we aren't with full knowledge, hence this topic making four pages at the time of this post.
I never had anything like this (serious conversation with anyone) about ANYTHING regarding God's Kingdom, even after I got adopted. For that I blame my old master, God's adversary.
Yes you read that right, and I'll be making a full post about it someday, I was once a Satan worshiper. Since I met Jesus in the desert (Kingman, Arizona) I was fully changed, altered, transformed and every other word that describes metamorphosis. I no longer understood things with just my brain but with my heart also! Satan can't stand losing and has been after me every year, month, week, day and hour since. He's used several hundred techniques and many people (even some close to my heart) to cause my downfall. If I allowed myself to be caught up in these things, I'm not going to lose my joy. I doubt I'd lose my Salvation, since God's Plan obvious involves me. I heard His Voice and did not harden my heart.
That joy is part of the fuel that keeps the brain in check. Love keeps my focus, well, focused. In fact every fruit of The Spirit gives me hope, comfort and more fuel for my faith.
That's all I can think of at the moment but so far I've no problem with any post made by anyone up to this point, yet each post seems to give off a bit of either fear or confusion or even distaste to the topic. I say let this thread continue and when the time comes for the trumpets sound we'll ALL know the truth!
Peace!

[Dirkdigdeep]

2Co_6:2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.) Eze 16:8 Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time was the time of love; and I spread my skirt over thee, and covered thy nakedness: yea, I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with thee, saith the Lord GOD, and thou becamest mine. Heb 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
Heb 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
The serious issue over OSAS ( a recent invented doctrine with roots in Calvinism and Augustine's Gnostic Doctrines.) verses a properly presented and understood doctrine of Conditional Salvation as was believed exclusively by the Christians up until John Calvin and his Gnostic " election and perseverance doctrine", is a SERIOUS subject. with some salvific implications. A person MUST properly understand BOTH or they will fail to grasp the real issues and be swayed improperly to misunderstanding. Its biblicaly unsound to say that you were saved for 2,000 years. Yes it is true that The Lamb was slain from the foundations of the world ( rev 13:*) and the works ( of salvation therefore ) also were finsihed from the foundations of the world (Heb 4: 3). But the mistake is in how we apply that fact. In this verse: 1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. It states that Jesus died Not just for the saved ( our) but he died for the sins of the "whole world". It begs the question then: "WHY are not all men saved"? Calvinist say it's "election", making God a respecter of persons. Or try to deny that WHOLE world means ALL of the world. The real answer is that the atonement is not applied plenarily (universaly). WHY? While the atonement is plenary ( for all men ) its also CONTRACTUAL ( a "Covenant"). In plain words the atone ment is not applied to YOU or anyone until and unless you first meet the terms of it. The terms of it are FAITH and REPENTANCE. And like all contracts , the terms of it are conditional upon completion of them. 1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Heb 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. Rom 11:21-22 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. (22) Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
No one is " saved" until they actualy believe and repent. NO ONE REMAINS aved if the fall away (heb 6: 4-6) , going back into willful sinning heb 10: 26-29, walk away from God in unbelief and sinning without repentance. Heb 3:12-15 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. (13) But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. (14) For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; (15) While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
yes steadfastness is wonderful, but the scriptures is repleat with warnings about this issue that you CAN fall AWAY: James 1: 12-15 for example. 2 Peter chapter 2 is another, and many many more. we are called to remian in faith and repentance lest we harden out hearts and be cut off. Conditional salvation recognizes the sufficency of God to do all his promises and that we rest and have faith in God is key to those promises. But it would only be half a truth to say God removes from us any free will to be able to walk away when such warnings as abound in scriptures are given FOR THE SOLE EXPRESS PURPOSE OF WARNING US ABOUT THAT! Let us be mature, reafirming our faith and quick to hear his voice TODAY, for TODAY is the day of salvation, FOR YOU< NOT 2,000 years ago, not even YESTERDAY.

[ArcticFox]

Christ Followers are in every denomination but not all people in those denominations are Christ Followers.

Truth.

Now here comes my part in this topic: OSAS is a fact. So is any other point of view for that matter. The only point of view that is properly acceptable is God's. Who on these forums has that? Certainly not myself.

Not sure I understand what you mean here. Are you saying all points of view on this matter are simultaneously fact?

Yes you read that right, and I'll be making a full post about it someday, I was once a Satan worshiper. Since I met Jesus in the desert (Kingman, Arizona) I was fully changed, altered, transformed and every other word that describes metamorphosis.

Glad to have you back on our side

[BlockHeadLewie]

Now here comes my part in this topic: OSAS is a fact. So is any other point of view for that matter. The only point of view that is properly acceptable is God's. Who on these forums has that? Certainly not myself.

Not sure I understand what you mean here. Are you saying all points of view on this matter are simultaneously fact?

Example: I see four wheeled vehicles running around on the beach. They are called cars, trucks or emergency vehicles. There are also ATV's, dune buggies and possibly other names. So when I said "four wheeled vehicles" was the first picture in your mind a car? Dune buggy? Someone else may have instantly thought ATV or even emergency vehicle. All are at the same time correct since there was no actual picture shown of said vehicle. God knows the thought behind my statement as well as how it was received.

Yes you read that right, and I'll be making a full post about it someday, I was once a Satan worshiper. Since I met Jesus in the desert (Kingman, Arizona) I was fully changed, altered, transformed and every other word that describes metamorphosis.

Glad to have you back on our side

Thank you. In The Father's Ultimate Plan I was never "off sides", just in "personal training" led by The Holy Spirit for the days to come. Those days are now here, in Jesus Name!
Peace!

[ArcticFox]

Example: I see four wheeled vehicles running around on the beach. They are called cars, trucks or emergency vehicles. There are also ATV's, dune buggies and possibly other names. So when I said "four wheeled vehicles" was the first picture in your mind a car? Dune buggy? Someone else may have instantly thought ATV or even emergency vehicle. All are at the same time correct since there was no actual picture shown of said vehicle. God knows the thought behind my statement as well as how it was received.

Ok I think I see what you mean. You're talking about various points of view being considered equally valid, until we get to the other side and all find out for sure, correct?

My only issue with that is that if people run around proclaiming OSAS as fact, they risk leading others astray, and if in fact one CAN lose salvation, then the person claiming OSAS may very well mistakenly contribute to someone relaxing their effort to live according to the Lord's Word and go astray. If that happens, then it's too late for those who went astray.

[BlockHeadLewie]

Correct ArcticFox, all will know at that time. Best part I believe will be when we all hear it we'll be like "Ahhhh! I get it now! So simple!"

My only issue with that is that if people run around proclaiming OSAS as fact, they risk leading others astray, and if in fact one CAN lose salvation, then the person claiming OSAS may very well mistakenly contribute to someone relaxing their effort to live according to the Lord's Word and go astray. If that happens, then it's too late for those who went astray.

Just for sake of this discussion, ArcticFox, what if it turns out to be true?

[Sstavix]

What if it is true? What if it is false? What if the only way to salvation was to be born in 1743, own three cats, one dog and attend church every other Sunday instead of every Sunday?

The only truth that we really know of is that no one on this planet can say, with 100% certainty and proof, that they know the only correct way to Heaven - or even if there is only one correct way to Heaven. Only God knows for certain, and obviously, it's not something that He has made abundantly clear for all of us.

So we need to rely on faith and prayer. I find it interesting that many people will come to different conclusions based on what they've read in the scriptures, and what messages they've received while praying. It serves as a testimony to me about how complex God's plan really is.

It also tells me that there may indeed be different paths. What works for me may not be the best way for you. Or that guy over there on the street. Or the stressed, over-worked business executive. It's an emphasis on the personal relationship that we all seek to have with God - whether we call Him God, or Heavenly Father, or Yahweh, or what have you. God knows each of us, and we all have our different roles to play. As a result, it's possible that we all have different instruction manuals and/or playbooks.

So while it is fun to have debates and discussions about these different spiritual aspects, we need to keep in mind that it isn't our place to judge whether or not someone has the truth, or if they're being misled. Because, without faith, we don't even know if we're being led in the correct direction ourselves. If someone says or writes something that really makes you wonder, then pray about it. Honestly and fervently pray about it. God will let you know if you should accept the idea - as outrageous as it may seem - or if you should reject it. Just be sure to accept the answer, whatever it is, and understand that it is something that He has determined to reveal specifically to you. It's up to you to decide where to go from there.

[ArcticFox]

Just for sake of this discussion, ArcticFox, what if it turns out to be true?

Then it's true, and Heaven will be more heavily populated than I thought. Doesn't cause any problems for me.

But let me turn the question back: What if it isn't? What if people who proclaim OSAS to be doctrinal truth have inadvertently caused some to fall away, because they don't believe they need to worry about staying faithful. What then? What should people who preach OSAS do about that?

[BlockHeadLewie]

First let me say I appreciate this discussion! I also respect everyone involved and hold no disrespect for ANY opinion. However the Word of God is quite clear and flawless, so with that behind us all I shall attempt to address your post.

What if it is true? What if it is false? What if the only way to salvation was to be born in 1743, own three cats, one dog and attend church every other Sunday instead of every Sunday?

The only truth that we really know of is that no one on this planet can say, with 100% certainty and proof, that they know the only correct way to Heaven - or even if there is only one correct way to Heaven. Only God knows for certain, and obviously, it's not something that He has made abundantly clear for all of us.

Sorry, this is incorrect. God made it perfectly clear through His Son:

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live."

And several other verses...

So we need to rely on faith and prayer. I find it interesting that many people will come to different conclusions based on what they've read in the scriptures, and what messages they've received while praying. It serves as a testimony to me about how complex God's plan really is.

It also tells me that there may indeed be different paths. What works for me may not be the best way for you. Or that guy over there on the street. Or the stressed, over-worked business executive. It's an emphasis on the personal relationship that we all seek to have with God - whether we call Him God, or Heavenly Father, or Yahweh, or what have you. God knows each of us, and we all have our different roles to play. As a result, it's possible that we all have different instruction manuals and/or playbooks.

Faith and prayer are VERY important!
As for the complex plan of God, the complexity is honestly removed because of faith IF that faith is in God (and all He stands for) and God alone. There is only one Word from God we should pay attention to and that is The Bible. Other sources can (and sometimes do) contradict, restructure, confuse or even delete parts God Himself intend as vital. Having said that I shall also say many books compliment and support God's Word. Remember that Satan can appear as an angel of light so we need to be extremely careful! One easy solution is this:

"Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints
"

So while it is fun to have debates and discussions about these different spiritual aspects, we need to keep in mind that it isn't our place to judge whether or not someone has the truth, or if they're being misled. Because, without faith, we don't even know if we're being led in the correct direction ourselves. If someone says or writes something that really makes you wonder, then pray about it. Honestly and fervently pray about it. God will let you know if you should accept the idea - as outrageous as it may seem - or if you should reject it. Just be sure to accept the answer, whatever it is, and understand that it is something that He has determined to reveal specifically to you. It's up to you to decide where to go from there.

I personally have nothing to say against (or for) this last part. I will, however, end my reply with the following:

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit."

(I honestly hope no one was hurt in the making of this post...)