Christ Centered Gamer

Help me understand something: Why are you here?

Like, you clearly aren't open to having your mind changed. I mean, there is literally nothing anyone could say to change your mind. Do you just like to argue for the sake of arguing? Is that it?

I could go point by point showing where you've either ignored or misrepresented what I've said, but that's pointless. You aren't looking to have your mind changed. So why are you here? Is it to pull Believers away from their faith? To get a high five from other atheists?

You don't want to know Yahweh, that much is abundantly clear. So you're not looking for enlightenment. You've already made your mind up on these issues, so clarification isn't the order of the day.

So, please, tell me: What does an atheist get out of tearing apart the faith of Believers in a community of Believers? A sense of pride? Do you think you're doing the noble thing saving us fools from ourselves?

Because that's what you think we are: Fools. We must be, right? We worship an evil god who kills homosexuals and forces women to marry their rapists; only fools do that. We may be well-meaning fools, sure, but fools nonetheless.

Cards on the table. Why are you here?

And I don't mean this forum as a whole. You're a gamer. Great. I mean "Spiritual Matters". You don't believe in a spirit world, so you are ill equipped to tackle spiritual questions. So you're here for another purpose.

What is it?

Wow. I have no words. Aside from the ones being shoved in my mouth, I mean.

Bruce_Campbell wrote:Wow. I have no words. Aside from the ones being shoved in my mouth, I mean.

Wasn't aware I was talking to you.

But I suppose the same questions could apply...

I mean, you are the one who brought up "stoning people for breaking the sabbath, enslaving other nations, and forcing rape victims to marry their rapists." That's the god Christians worship, is it not?

Those are your words. Not mine. So, no, I'm not shoving anything into your mouth. I'm taking your sentiment to its logical conclusion. If that is the image of the god you have that Christians worship, we're either fools or insane.

Were we insane I don't think you'd be here. You or ArchAngel. So fools it is.

And here you are debating with fools. To what end? To enlighten us and have us turn from our ways? Okay, a noble thing from your perspective, I'm sure. Ultimately you'd have us turn from our faith. That is the net effect of your desire, is it not?

Believers want to turn you from your ways for your own good. We don't hide that. Do you not wish to do the same to us? To turn us from an evil imaginary god? Were that not the case, and it may not be, that means you're simply here to be disruptive for the sake of being disruptive. Which would make you a troll.

Again, cards on the table: What are you trying to accomplish here?

Well let's see where we have some common ground. Many of the members here are former Christians and long-time members. Many have registered on this site while they were still believers. I'm well aware that it is no longer the case and I respect that and ask for respect of our beliefs in return. It's typically not an issue as these guys don't butt into the Bible studies when we randomly do them etc. But the debates forum was voted in to stay in these forums (though tucked away and with HEAVY warnings). The discussions have been civil for the most part, but the sarcasm is toeing the line a bit and perhaps going beyond the acceptable range. I am also well aware that some Christians have crossed the lines with some members here too and I don't condone that either. I want this to be a family friendly forum and welcoming to all. None of us are perfect and Christ hung around flawed people. The way I see it we're in perfect company. I think the non-believers don't mind when we pray for them and we all share our praises and concerns with one another. When it comes to the debates I don't have much time to do the research and it's really not worth doing so if there's little hope to make any difference. It's easy to get worked up and let emotions lose in these parts. I put the warnings in for a reason. If people come in with open minds and civil discussions, much can be learned. If nothing but vile words is being posted that doesn't reflect good on anyone. I hope and pray that we consider our words wisely and think of the audience we're trying to reach and how our posts will impact others spiritually and emotionally. I want this site to be uplifting for Christians (and others seeking a family friendly environment) and don't want to be responsible for leading any astray.

ArchAngel wrote:

Bruce_Campbell wrote:Was thinking about replying, but then anything I say will either be replying to thinly veiled insults or restating what ArchAngel said. I do want to give kudos to Sstavix for being the cool, respectful guy that he is (and I mean that sincerely). Anyway, back to the spectator seats.

Yeah, he's cool. I'm curious where our thread of discussion will lead.

Aww, thanks, guys!

Feel free to lock the thread, if you feel it is necessary. But I posted the topic here - not in debates - out of a genuine curiosity to see what the Presbyterians thought about this decision. From the article, it seemed to me that many of the members of that branch had mixed opinions about it, so I was curious to see if any Presbyterians here (if any) had any feedback as well.

It certainly wasn't my intention to cause any Presbyterians to change their minds about the topic or even their faith. Far from it! I'm not the kind of person to tell others "your entire belief system is wrong, and you need to change before it's too late!" I prefer to try and live by example. If someone likes what they see and are curious, I'm willing to share. As one of my favorite lines from The Matrix goes " I can only show you the door. You are the one that has to decide to walk through it." Or something like that... I tend to quote that movie a lot. There's a lot of interesting spiritual undertones to....

Ahem... where was I? Oh yes....

In any case, we are a very diverse community with a lot of different beliefs. We've got a couple of Mormons around here, the occasional Catholic, a couple atheists and... whatever Orodrist is. It's a nice diverse group, and it stands to reason that it would be beneficial to get to know each other and their mindsets better. Not to change anyone's minds or beliefs or anything like that, but just to get to know and respect and love one another. After all, we're all on this watery rock orbiting a big burning ball of gas together. We should learn to get along, despite our differences.

Now, let's see if I can steer the thread back on topic... be back in a sec....

EDIT: OK, here we are. Had to post that above in order to get back to one of ArchAngel's earlier posts.

ArchAngel wrote: Obviously, I don't think they had visions or messages from God, but I don't think anybody did.

I think you may be right, but I'm not willing to completely discount that possibility. Heavenly Father works in mysterious ways. Quite often He will ask us to do things that make absolutely no sense to us at the time (such as telling Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, but on a personal note, telling me to join the LDS church would qualify, too), but through obedience we can get a glimpse of His plan and our role in it.

So did God tell the Presbyterians that it was time to extend the blessings of marriage to homosexuals? If the Presbyterians do genuinely believe this decision was divinely inspired, then that's fine. I can't argue with that point, because I'm not going to argue with God. We all have a part in His plan (yes, even those who don't believe in Him ) and I'm not going to interfere with that.

However, if this decision is that of a group of people who think they are doing what is right - basically a decision by consensus or committee, rather than divine revelation - I'm wondering what the significance of it may be. Is it truly God's will if God doesn't have a direct hand in it? Or is it believed that the committee members inspired enough to act in God's stead?

ArchAngel wrote: I would be interested to hear you discuss this with some Christians of one of those opinions.

Hence the reason I started the topic.

Sstavix wrote:In any case, we are a very diverse community with a lot of different beliefs. We've got a couple of Mormons around here, the occasional Catholic, a couple atheists and... whatever Orodrist is. It's a nice diverse group, and it stands to reason that it would be beneficial to get to know each other and their mindsets better. Not to change anyone's minds or beliefs or anything like that, but just to get to know and respect and love one another. After all, we're all on this watery rock orbiting a big burning ball of gas together. We should learn to get along, despite our differences.

I've been mulling around what else I wanted to say in this topic all evening, even typed up and deleted several replies. As usual, someone comes along and says it better than I could have. That is one of the big reasons I still post here. Seriously, you all keep me humble. Group hug!

I was a member of the PCA (Presbyterian Church of America ) not to be confused with the PCUSA till it folded due to internal politics (the ones who tried to change it actually went to the main line PCUSA and helped to get a lot of this blasphemy introduced in it at the local level)
I used to go online to the PCUSA web site and read their statement of faith it was changing all the time at one time it said
we believe there is only one way to heaven and that through Christ BUT if you believe in a different way we feel we can't say it is wrong for your way may also lead to heaven
ok one way to heaven unless you find a different one Sophia worship has grown greatly in theirs and other churches
causing in the CPUSA a split and the forming of the Confessing Church or something like that one artical I am reading on Sophia worship says
"A major theme in the history of the Sophia movement is the inability, or unwillingness, of church leaders to stamp it out. In the mainline denominations that ordained women, feminist clergy and theologians either supported “Sophia theology” or sympathized with it. The UMC, the ELCA, the Presbyterian Church USA, the Episcopal Church USA, and others consistently failed to enforce church discipline. The UMC bishop in their region, Susan Morrison, for years protected Taussig and Cady, deflecting complaints against them, maneuvering politically within the UMC General Assembly and regional conferences to stymie any active defense of orthodoxy." ( The March of “Sophia” http://chalcedon.edu/research/articles/ ... of-sophia/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; )
Sadly there is a growing belief in main line churches to try to bring in more people not by showing them the way to heave nor salvation BUT by dragging heaven down to the gutter and bring salvation in what ever form or belief you wish.
the Bible warns of all of the anitchrist's that would be in the world but the real antichrist would appear sadly they seem to find not only a home but support in their growth by the very bastions of salvation that are supposed to battle it

BTW sorry for the long rambling reply but this has been a very up close and personal thing for me
if you want to see the better side of the PCUSA go to http://www.layman.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; unless it has changed it is made of those within the church that oppose the direction the PCUSA is going and are some of the ones behind the confessing church

storm wrote:BTW sorry for the long rambling reply but this has been a very up close and personal thing for me
if you want to see the better side of the PCUSA go to http://www.layman.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; unless it has changed it is made of those within the church that oppose the direction the PCUSA is going and are some of the ones behind the confessing church

No need to apologize for a long post - as you've probably seen, many of us have a tendency to get long-winded.

And thank you for your feedback and opinions! I haven't heard of this Sophia movement before (not surprising - I'm not Presbyterian), but I know there's a similar movement in the LDS churches with a few women trying to get the priesthood. It sounds to me that you disagree with the Sophia approach, and may have even switched to another church because of it. Would this be accurate?

selderane wrote:Help me understand something: Why are you here?

Like, you clearly aren't open to having your mind changed. I mean, there is literally nothing anyone could say to change your mind. Do you just like to argue for the sake of arguing? Is that it?

I could go point by point showing where you've either ignored or misrepresented what I've said, but that's pointless. You aren't looking to have your mind changed. So why are you here? Is it to pull Believers away from their faith? To get a high five from other atheists?

You don't want to know Yahweh, that much is abundantly clear. So you're not looking for enlightenment. You've already made your mind up on these issues, so clarification isn't the order of the day.

So, please, tell me: What does an atheist get out of tearing apart the faith of Believers in a community of Believers? A sense of pride? Do you think you're doing the noble thing saving us fools from ourselves?

Because that's what you think we are: Fools. We must be, right? We worship an evil god who kills homosexuals and forces women to marry their rapists; only fools do that. We may be well-meaning fools, sure, but fools nonetheless.

Cards on the table. Why are you here?

And I don't mean this forum as a whole. You're a gamer. Great. I mean "Spiritual Matters". You don't believe in a spirit world, so you are ill equipped to tackle spiritual questions. So you're here for another purpose.

What is it?

Look, man, I'm not sure where the "opponent disagrees? Begin personal attack" plan starts to seem cool (or, well, Christ-like), but you're taking the discussion in directions no one needs to go.

As others have said, kudos to Sstavix for being an all around cool guy.

Why am I here?
Because ideas are meant to be challenged. We all have conceptions on how the world is, but those need to be tempered and questioned. As iron sharpens iron, to quote the Bible. This is not just for me to challenge Christian beliefs, but also to have my own beliefs questioned and challenged. I seem pretty sure that faith is no virtue, how do I know? I can only challenge my own beliefs so far, sometimes I need new information. As it turns out, the imaginary people I debate in my head and in the shower (yes, I do that. Now you all are privy to my shame) pale in comparison to all of you I can talk with here.

I've said this before to other people, and I'll continue to repeat myself: I am not here to deconvert people. I would not even try to deconvert my own children if they chose to be christian and I do not try to do so with my wife. If I am to convince people of anything, it's the importance of critical, skeptical, and rational thinking. I would choose a rational theist or an irrational atheist 10 out of 10 times.
Now, to be perfectly honest, there is a part of me that would like to bring people to leave their faith behind and experience the certain freedom of thought that being areligious has, but I try keep that under close watch. Leaving one's faith is a revolution of one and I can't claim any responsibility or credit for it, and frankly, it's all beside the point, often a base desire to get more people on my "side," as if sides really exist. I have no doubt that people here would like to bring me back to Christ, at least for them, they'd like to know I'd go to heaven. It's not a bad thing to want for someone. All I can and should do is challenge ideas.

My desire to learn is also not that of a wide eyed child, eager for his lesson, and you are no sage teacher. We're all just scholars in this world with competing ideas on how it works. I'm not coming to you for answers, but I will listen to what you have to say.

Now, I've learned a lot by talking with people here. Everybody brings a different perspective and sometimes they'll teach me something, or sometimes they'll make me examine my own beliefs. It's not even a matter of them convincing me or me convincing them, debates make you dive inward and really examine your worldview. Many people here talk about the importance of an unchanging absolute morality. I need to examine what are the strengths and weaknesses of that, and in turn, what holds together my ethical system? Those questions are often not asked of oneself, but they are important nonetheless.

Frankly, I'm simply far more comfortable with a mix of opinions to which I agree and disagree with, and I tend to the prefer differing opinions. I don't really know what to do with a group opinion I agree with. There's nothing for me to say and it's just rather boring. Where's the learning experience? Even more base than that, where's the thrill of the argument?

So no, I don't think the people here are fools. I have a deep respect for many people here, and the few I don't hold respect for, I do not engage. Either, they're too young and still have some growing up to do or I find them incapable of reasonable discussion. I do have an active ignore running, and it holds a grand total of 2 people. And I'm talking to you now, so you're not one of them. That's it, nobody else do I consider a "fool."

But I have enough respect for people here to be honest with them. I think they are incorrect. It's not personal and it's not telling of their mental abilities. Religious people aren't idiots. They are just wrong in their beliefs. It's as simple as that. I work hard to make sure I debate about ideas and not people. I disagreed strongly with many people here, but that doesn't mean I thought any less of them. In fact, I've often been impressed how they've handled themselves, each in their own way.

This is what I want to reaffirm with you: This is not personal. You've frequently and consistently have been making claims about how I am and implications on my very character. And I can continually deny these, but this is all beside the point. It's Ad Hominem. Even if you can show that I have ulterior and even sinister motives, my words stand on it's own. You're spending a lot of time to pigeon hole us into disingenuous motives, but it leads no where, it'll buy you nothing, and, frankly, the methodology is just wrong. If there's one thing I learned from Christians from this side of the debate, it's the complexity and diversity of people and opinions. They are not so easily and neatly summed. To be honest, though, all of those questions would be pretty insulting if I didn't think you were honestly trying to grasp why we are here.

If I misrepresented or ignored what you were saying, it's because I missed it or misunderstood it. One thing I never do in debates is intentionally distort another's words. I try my best to understand, but we all have our own biases and viewpoints, so the connection is never perfect.

So, apart from this excessive response, I want to address one of your posts because I think it's a common misunderstanding and not one we atheists clear up so well.

selderane wrote:I mean, you are the one who brought up "stoning people for breaking the sabbath, enslaving other nations, and forcing rape victims to marry their rapists." That's the god Christians worship, is it not?

Actually, no, I don't. I think you worship a very different god from that in the Bible. The god you have in your head is loving and fatherly, but the god I see in the bible is often cruel and capricious. We often spend a lot of time making jabs at the god of the text, but I think there's a reason why it frequently does not resonate with believers. Because we're not talking about the god in your head. There is a very strong cognitive dissonance and you'll read what you want to read from it, and there's enough text to support a variety of different types of gods. The fact of the matter is, I'm glad most Christians choose this cognitive dissonance over a pure textual reading. But, it's hard to address cognitive dissonance directly, and one of the simplest and easiest ways is pointing out the god that commands slavery and genocide. So there, that's what I think of it.

Sstavix wrote:One thought that occurred to me was this - by whose authority was this change instituted? To the best of my recollection, there are only two mainstream Christian denominations which are led by individuals who claim to receive direct communication from God in regards to church decisions as a whole. And the Presbyterians aren't one of them.

they are ruled by separate Presbyters and have for lack of better term a yearly congress where these things are voted on sadly most have been filled with pro homosexuality and such so that a very few can affect a very lot Im not sure who the leader of it all is now but the guy they used to have was pro Sophia worship, gays and reducing salvation to if you feel your not sinning then you must not be that is best way i can explain it
but they literally infiltrate a church move up in popularity and get elected to offices then only does their beliefs come out

Sstavix wrote:

storm wrote:BTW sorry for the long rambling reply but this has been a very up close and personal thing for me
if you want to see the better side of the PCUSA go to http://www.layman.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; unless it has changed it is made of those within the church that oppose the direction the PCUSA is going and are some of the ones behind the confessing church

No need to apologize for a long post - as you've probably seen, many of us have a tendency to get long-winded.

And thank you for your feedback and opinions! I haven't heard of this Sophia movement before (not surprising - I'm not Presbyterian), but I know there's a similar movement in the LDS churches with a few women trying to get the priesthood. It sounds to me that you disagree with the Sophia approach, and may have even switched to another church because of it. Would this be accurate?

No I was with the PCA a smaller but more faith based form of the Presbyterians we were not and still are not a part of the PCUSA we got in our ranks people who felt like that too only we as a church and as the PCA on the whole didnt stand for it it was better to lose the church I was in fighting for God we were the only one I know of that had that problem but the leadership was made of college professors wanting a more intellectual chruch so much so that they allowed a guy to teach who believed God created
Adam and Eve but then allowed others to evolve from apes yet the majority of the church knew nothing Ignorance & Apathy are the greatest enemy of modern man and the church

I know of all of this from looking at the layman site They are in the PCUSA but are fighting this movement and helping other churches within the PCUSA to also join the confessing churches where they all have 3 main beliefs

"The fast-growing nationwide Confessing Church Movement has committed to the following three affirmations. The first is essentially an affirmation of the Reformation watchword, Solus Christus; that Jesus Christ alone is Lord and Savior of humankind and none come to the Living God except through him. The second affirms Sola Scriptura; that Holy Scripture alone is the rule, guide and standard for theology and polity of the Church of which Christ is the head. The third affirms Sola Gratia, that we live by grace alone and are called to live a holy life in our conduct because our God is holy. Such holiness embraces sexual relations, which are proper only within the context of marriage between a man and a woman."
http://rq.rts.edu/spring03/confessing.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
this is best explanation of what they believe and they need our prayers as they are at the gate holding off the tide of political correctness

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but I haven't heard of the PCA folding. Quite the opposite in fact.

Nice to see this thread stay on topic [/sarcasm]. I'm not surprised that the Presbyterian church endorses this. I think that the corporate church is quickly slipping into mainstream culture that is being dictated by the minority. This is why so many people are turned off by organized religion - myself increasingly included.