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Re: 6 worst things about American Christianity
Posted: Tue May 14, 2013 4:00 am
by Bruce_Campbell
There was a great South Park episode where someone said "Why can't evolution be the how and God be the why?" And that's all I have to say about evolution vs. creationism.
Re: 6 worst things about American Christianity
Posted: Tue May 14, 2013 5:15 pm
by ArchAngel
brandon1984 wrote:I just wanted to make a quick comment here, I don't totally disagree with you on this AA. I agree to a large extent with Stephen Gould's non-overlapping magisteria (NOM) idea. For example, I can't discover God in a test tube whereas I can verify natural selection in bacteria cultures. But, I don't want this to leave the impression that all religious ideas are equal. Religious ideas are still subject to historical evidence and rationality.
All religious ideas aren't equal and all religions aren't. In the sense I find them equal is that I find that they are incorrect and none of them are properly evidenced. But outside of that, I judge a religion as a collection of ideas and teachings. The better and more productive the teachings, the better I judge a religion. Ultimately, I find the whole thing not worth it, simply because I do not think one should believe anything that's untrue or can't be proven true, and I hold that for religion.
Re: 6 worst things about American Christianity
Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 4:36 pm
by LAVA89
Bruce_Campbell wrote:There was a great South Park episode where someone said "Why can't evolution be the how and God be the why?" And that's all I have to say about evolution vs. creationism.
Even though I'm a creationist, I see the logic in that. In fact, I think a Christian's acceptance of evolution boils down to one's interpretation of Genesis. For instance, I can't see someone who takes Genesis literally (such as myself), to believe in evolution. Especially the line where God physically forms man out of the mud, which gives evolution very little wiggle room to take place (at least for man's creation).
So really, unless two people who are debating are Christians, there's no point in debating evolution vs Creationism. Since evolution is just a method in which life could've originated and creationism tackles both the how and the why.
Instead it should boil down the the debate of two religions-- namely atheism vs theism; spontaneous creation vs intentional creation \ intelligent design (and yes, I consider atheism to be a religion). Something science really can't prove or disprove.
Re: 6 worst things about American Christianity
Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 5:41 pm
by ChickenSoup
Can we stop calling atheism a religion?
Re: 6 worst things about American Christianity
Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 5:51 pm
by Bruce_Campbell
ChickenSoup wrote:Can we stop calling atheism a religion?
THANK YOU.
Re: 6 worst things about American Christianity
Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 6:17 pm
by ccgr
how about a non-prophet organization?
Re: 6 worst things about American Christianity
Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 6:20 pm
by ArchAngel
Re: 6 worst things about American Christianity
Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 8:43 pm
by LAVA89
ChickenSoup wrote:Can we stop calling atheism a religion?
Why? It's my opinion. Maybe religion is a strong term, at best its still a belief system.
Its just that I often see debates between atheism and theism touted as "religion vs science" when in reality its just different beliefs hashing it out.
Also, I like how the rest of my post was ignored (something I thought most people, atheist and theist alike would agree with), because of one off-hand sentence.
Re: 6 worst things about American Christianity
Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 9:02 pm
by ArchAngel
Unfortunately, no, this isn't a matter of opinion. This is a matter of words and we need to agree on what they mean.
Atheism does encapsulate a belief, or more accurately, a non-belief. We can't define religion as a system of belief, because that would hold much more than what we'd recognize as a religion. Religion has some far more specific parameters involving organizational teachings surrounding morality and spirituality.
Now, I really don't like using dictionary definitions in a point, but when it's to define a term, it's probably acceptable:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/religion" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Re: 6 worst things about American Christianity
Posted: Thu May 16, 2013 2:57 am
by ChickenSoup
I also see the same people who say that Christianity is NOT A RELIGION call atheism a religion. lolwut
Re: 6 worst things about American Christianity
Posted: Thu May 16, 2013 4:13 am
by LAVA89
ChickenSoup wrote:I also see the same people who say that Christianity is NOT A RELIGION call atheism a religion. lolwut
Totally not me. Christianity is a set of beliefs, hence religion.
To me, any religion answers 3 big questions, where did life originate? what is moral? what happens after we die? This is not so different from the definition on the link that Arch posted (definition #1).
How did life originate? (I'll just stick to life on earth to avoid complicating things)
Atheist (stereotypical one for sake of argument): it was a string of spontaneous events that happened by chance
Christian: God created life (Genesis Creation Story)
what is moral?
Atheist (again, another cookie cutter example, each atheist would have their own answer): Morality is a social construct created by men to control society, someday it will be explained away with "science"
Christian: God tells us what is moral via the Ten Commandments
what happens after we die?
Athiest: you become worm food, NOTHING HAPPENS
Christian: you are judged by God, one of two outcomes, heaven or hell
Both beliefs answer the same set of questions. Thus, Christianity should be classified as a religion, albeit
the extraordinary religion.
Re: 6 worst things about American Christianity
Posted: Thu May 16, 2013 4:53 am
by brandon1984
LAVA89 wrote:Totally not me. Christianity is a set of beliefs, hence religion.
To me, any religion answers 3 big questions, where did life originate? what is moral? what happens after we die? This is not so different from the definition on the link that Arch posted (definition #1).
How did life originate? (I'll just stick to life on earth to avoid complicating things)
Atheist (stereotypical one for sake of argument): it was a string of spontaneous events that happened by chance
Christian: God created life (Genesis Creation Story)
what is moral?
Atheist (again, another cookie cutter example, each atheist would have their own answer): Morality is a social construct created by men to control society, someday it will be explained away with "science"
Christian: God tells us what is moral via the Ten Commandments
what happens after we die?
Athiest: you become worm food, NOTHING HAPPENS
Christian: you are judged by God, one of two outcomes, heaven or hell
Both beliefs answer the same set of questions. Thus, Christianity should be classified as a religion, albeit the extraordinary religion.
My friend, I don't necessarily disagree with you here. And, I feel bad for making a tangent out of a tangent from your original point. But, as a Christian I answer those 3 questions a little differently (even if we don't mean much differently ultimately):
How did life originate?
No one knows the proximal causes. God could have designed the universe so that it arose spontaneously via abiogenesis. Or, God could have aided the process.
What is moral?
The greatest of morals are 1) love the Lord your God and 2) the Golden Rule.
What happens after we die?
Our conscious which is moved to a holding place. There are two types of holding place. One is Paradise the other is Hades. In the future our conscious will suddenly animate resurrected bodies. Then we will be judged by Jesus Christ on this Judgment Day. Some will gain eternal life being able to live in the New Creation others will not.
Re: 6 worst things about American Christianity
Posted: Thu May 16, 2013 5:15 am
by LAVA89
Yeah, I do admit that I simplified things a bit, for the sake of the post (for both the atheist and Christian answers).
Re: 6 worst things about American Christianity
Posted: Thu May 16, 2013 5:02 pm
by Bruce_Campbell
Just going to clarify why atheism isn't a religion. Atheism answers one question: Do you believe in a god (or gods)? If yes, you are a theist (or polytheist, which is really a subset of theism). If no, you are an atheist. Either side can be religious, but they are not religions in and of themselves.
There are some atheists who are religious. For example, some sects of Buddhism do not require belief in a god. There is even at least one atheist branch of Judaism. On the other hand, would you argue that just because someone believes in a god, that person is religious?
Re: 6 worst things about American Christianity
Posted: Thu May 16, 2013 5:05 pm
by ArchAngel
ChickenSoup wrote:I also see the same people who say that Christianity is NOT A RELIGION call atheism a religion. lolwut
I can't stop repping your posts.
LAVA89 wrote:To me, any religion answers 3 big questions, where did life originate? what is moral? what happens after we die? This is not so different from the definition on the link that Arch posted (definition #1).
How did life originate? (I'll just stick to life on earth to avoid complicating things)
Atheist (stereotypical one for sake of argument): it was a string of spontaneous events that happened by chance
Christian: God created life (Genesis Creation Story)
what is moral?
Atheist (again, another cookie cutter example, each atheist would have their own answer): Morality is a social construct created by men to control society, someday it will be explained away with "science"
Christian: God tells us what is moral via the Ten Commandments
what happens after we die?
Athiest: you become worm food, NOTHING HAPPENS
Christian: you are judged by God, one of two outcomes, heaven or hell
Both beliefs answer the same set of questions. Thus, Christianity should be classified as a religion, albeit the extraordinary religion.
No. Atheism does not answer any of those questions. Those are frequent explanations by atheists, but they are by no means tenants of atheism. There is no book of Atheism that teaches these things and you certainly don't have to accept these at all to be atheist (although they are the logical alternative, albeit "spontaneous events" is indigenous to Big History). If, of course, you find these answers in the Atheist scripture, I'd admit I'm wrong.
The only thing you need to believe to be an Atheist is that you need to not believe in a deity. That's it. Only by exclusion from religion does it seem like an actual group, but it's not. Atheism is the null hypothesis.