You're the best, bro. We all get irritated at each other sometimes, and I'm sure we all wish the other would stick a sock in it sometimes,, but that only speaks to the fact that we can all be mates despite it.
Would it make you feel better if I told you it was completely intentional?
There are more correct words I could've used there, but they were unfriendly. I classified it as annoying because it is, and I genuinely believe "the people who use the word that way" to be incorrect in many of the ways they think, and the reason they use the word in the fashion they do. That's harsh, and I'm sorry if that hurts your feelings. And I assure you, I'm just as annoyed by this as you are when I proverbially say "shut up, freak ball".
I made the mistake of basing an argument largely off of my own hurt feelings, which I again apologize to you and everyone for. It doesn't change my frustration with your attitude, but it's not even the biggest deal in the first place, so I'll avoid an argument about something as small as a term like "annoying punk."
I do. I loved it. But the fact is, you can't use personal experience in this matter. It's not worth much given you are not the representative of all childrens. I know people, actually know them, who grew up around smoking and swearing and drinking, and now consider those things totally OK in any light. I know people who grew up around and with homosexuals who think it's totally OK, and nothing is wrong with it. And that counts just as important in this argument as whether or not someone actually changed their sexual preferences.
CK, you cannot even stand on stone with your own arguments. "Hazard a guess" cannot be followed by "you'd be fundamentally wrong", and "guarantee". Those things...you cannot give me a guarantee unless you've talked to every homosexual person out there. If you have, I'll listen and change my belief pants. You may very well be correct. But you'd also have to discount the dozens (hundreds, perhaps) of "I was 37 and married and suddenly realized I'm gay" stories out there, unless every one of them included the blurb "I wanted this as a kid, but it was repressed". And again, just because you didn't give in to peer pressure, doesn't mean no one does. I didn't give in to the compulsion to puff on a cigarette, but my sister did.
This only affirms my point, though. I was attempting to explain why "homophobia" is an appropriate word for how a lot of Christians act with gay people, though I think I got away from the point before. On the basis of what you're saying, the kid is more likely to think being gay is okay if they spend time with or like a gay person. So the parent isolates the kid. They shut the kid away from what they seem to perceive is toxic fumes. That is paranoia, plain and simple, because parents are afraid that by seeing gay people as regular, nice people who say "yeah, I'm okay with being gay," that their kid will disagree with their parents, and be okay with homosexuality. Steer them clear of gay people, and gay people remain a distant anomaly, something sinful and unknowable. That's just the way it works. You can't tell your kid to hate the sin and love the sinner but prevent them from getting to know a gay person and their perspective on things. It entirely distorts the issue and feeds into the rejection that so many kids feel because they are or act gay. You can't even get around the fact that something like that is homphobia, so I don't understand how there can be so much disagreement on that.
As for me using personal experience as too much of a crutch, you're right. That was a mistake stemming from the already personal nature of my post. I still stand by my argument, however. I had great parents who taught me very clearly about what they believed was wrong and right, and because of their involvement, I met a lot of people leading questionable lifestyles and doing questionable things without thinking it was okay or actually giving in and doing it. A lot of people I know had parents like that and turned out pretty alright. I'm using personal experience again, but sociologically this is fact. If the parent plays an involved role, the kid will follow their compass early in life and likely for much of the rest of their life. They're not going to become gay if they meet a gay person. Paranoia comes into play here again, because the parent is afraid that the kid won't stay true to their teachings if they relate to people following opposite values. To this day my mom thinks I steered away from some core things that she taught me because I got on the internet. I heartily refute that. It doesn't matter how long she sheltered me, I would've gone that way eventually because it's who I am, it's the structure of my beliefs. A certain measure of sheltering your kids is understandable, obviously, but there's a point where it becomes... wait for it... phobic. If it's aimed at homosexuals, it becomes homophobic. I don't say that venomously, because at the very least it's done out of care for the kid, but I do believe that it's misplaced.
Simply put, I believe that your kid is going to be far more likely to stay true to the parents values even if they come to like a gay person. And anyway, believing homosexuality is okay and smoking a cigarette are vastly different things, and I don't see the comparison. It's not your responsibility to enforce that your kid doesn't believe homosexuality is okay. You can teach them to the best of your ability, but they still might go the other way.
And the only thing I can say here is...and? I hope that is not rude, but it's hte only response I can think of. A lot of kids grow up to be druggies, abusers, killers, ETC based upon their environment and who they hang out with. Just because you haven't, doesn't mean no one does. I'd actually consider those bad examples. And I seem to remember you being fairly pro-marijuana.
Yeah, when they didn't have a sense of appropriate authority in their lives or when they were thrown into a mess of a social life without a lifeline. I'd say the blame is far less on the peers than it is on the parents in those cases.
And I am, but not because of my family. They're far more indicative of how marijuana use can go awry. Anyway, most of them use meth, not marijuana, and last I checked, I am definitely not pro-meth.
It happens. It hurts. I tend to side with your mom, since the people you hang out with influence who you are as a person. No one seems to want to accept that nowadays, but it's incredibly true. It can be patently proven. through my own experiences (which is a bad indicator, and you can give me a hand slap), and through the experiences of others.
It's true, you reflect your peers to a degree, but there's an extreme miscalculation in just how much that goes on. What is also patently proven is that it's impossible to find people exactly like yourself who share every single one of your values. The people who do some of these things are some of the most admirable people I know, whether Christian or not, and according to you and other people I should abandon them. The same applies to any Christian: exclude the ones with different lifestyles because they will pollute your own. I appreciate your reasoning, it's not groundless, but it's something that I view to be in direct opposition of Christianity because to remove yourself from other's company because of their coping mechanisms is anything but love and also doesn't rely on trusting God to help you maintain righteousness while in the midst of darkness, which is instrumental to the faith. It will also isolate you from friendship completely.
You don't have to agree with people, but you certainly don't have to abandon or reject them. That's far more than homophobia, it's a fear of humanity, which you can't escape because you are and always will be entirely human. If you're unable to resist the influence of others, then sure, maybe you need to reevaluate who you hang out with. Surrounding yourself with people who live wisely (according to your own values, anyway) is healthy. I don't disagree. But you'll find that if you practice that to the umpteenth degree, you only nurture the hurt and loneliness in the people who aren't good enough for you (or your religion, or whatever) and you further the perception of Christianity being cold and prejudiced. If that's how you want to live, I can't stop you, but I can't even begin to express how wrong and counterproductive I think it is.
Amigo, who is to say some discrimination is wrong? Another "evil" concept in the modern world, but I think it's OK, to an extent. Be kind to people, be a friend, but watch yourself carefully when you hang with them. If you want to call that discrimination, well...it happens. For that matter, personal experience doesn't apply here either. Or at least, your logic is flawed. If I meet a homosexual on the street, I treat them like any other person I happen to walk by. In fact, I sort of go out of my way to be kind to them (which is, btw, discrimination) to overcome my own "prejudice". Yet I categorically know that their way of life is a sin, and according to Romans, actually happens in society because of the sin within it.
History says it. History says it time and time again. Discrimination does not stop. Caution is not discrimination. What you're talking about is caution. If it's clear that someone will only take you down a path of destruction, then you go separate ways. That isn't discrimination. Discrimination is a change in treatment towards others based on who they are or what they do. Discrimination is an automatic schism between humans based on surface details whereas caution is simply keeping your wits about you as you get to know someone, making sure you don't relate with individuals who will hurt you. There's an incredibly clear difference and they're impossible to combine together.
treatment or consideration of, or making a distinction in favor of or against, a person or thing based on the group, class, or category to which that person or thing belongs rather than on individual merit:
And for the record, it's completely silly to me that people try to be notably nicer to others just to keep themselves sprite and free of prejudice. You're right, that is discrimination, and it's unnecessary. I agree that minorities need extra help because they are the castaways, and they require more of our focus so that society as a whole can become more even-keeled, but if the reasoning is to make sure that we replace prejudice with kindness, then we need to look at why we're feeling prejudice in the first place. "I don't have any black friends" or "I don't have any gay friends" are things I hear constantly and it boggles my mind. You have human friends, don't you? Do any of them have a mole on their chin? No? Man, that's sad, better go find one, your friend spectrum is incomplete.
For the rest, parents should have the right to dictate who their kid hangs out with, at least until a certain age. It may chafe you, but don't go all "THEY'RE SO DISCRIMINATIN".
Doesn't help anything, because then the parents push harder.
Dude, I will label it as discrimination, and they're free to push as hard as they want. I don't think discrimination writes off a person's quality, and I don't think it should be reacted to with a call to arms or like it's an insult. I think that you should examine why people are saying that about you and see if perhaps they're right, and also examine if the accuser is legitimate or just overly sensitive. Like Arch, I don't want to criticize people who aren't on this forum, much less Matthias' own mom, considering that she raised such a rad dude. All I'm trying to do here is define discrimination, and I do consider that kind of behavior to be discriminatory. My own dad is one of the most racially and sexually discriminatory person I know, but in subtle ways. It happens, and you move on and you love that person despite it, but my whole family knows that I find them to be pretty discriminatory. I imagine it bothers them that I think that, but they think I'm a cynical heathen who's teetering towards hell, so I can't say I necessarily feel bad about it. And like I said, I think taking offense over it or scoffing at it is unnecessary. Even if you view the word to be misused, it's always worth considering if people may be hurting because of your behavior. Again, maybe they're overly sensitive, or maybe not. Maybe it's actually feeding into the pain of others that we are all far too easily blinded to.
I'll take that bet, captain.
I can't say I'm surprised by this, because I know it's always going to be a thing one way or another. God knows I'm used to it by now between church and my family, though my family has stuck through it all because they are blood relatives. I'll always find "church family" a comical term because I guarantee that as soon as you fall into a forbidden hole, they will leave you (like they did with my family due to divorce and sleeping in late, of all things), save for what few true friendships you formed there. Luckily CCGR is nothing like church, which I left, and there are members here of many varying beliefs, most of which are more inclusive than yours (which isn't an insult, because I like you and I'm pretty sure you're aware of that). I do think this depicts precisely what I've been aiming at this whole time, which is the cut off nature of Christianity, whether it be in the form of homophobic feelings and actions or the persistence of "agree with us or be separated from us." Yeah, I'm bothered by a lot of the categorically Christian values here, but I also treasure a lot of them. The whole concept of telling someone to leave this place based off of disagreement on values is ludicrous to me. The only person I can remember telling to leave was FFG, which I don't regret, because the dude was malicious in everything that he did. I think that may be the most fundamental difference between you and I. I think a lot of what you believe is insane (which I'm sure goes both ways), but as much as your views bother me, I'm not going to recommend that you leave. I'm going to recommend talking, and chilling, and living. Sounds hippie, I guess, but it's quite a bit like Jesus. I don't understand how telling someone to leave if they're bothered is even worth considering. I think it's childish, and I think it's a core issue of religion, because once again we find ourselves confronting the issue of discrimination.
All I can say is that after so many hundreds of years, society the world over is generally proving history, which shows that after so much discrimination, change and revolution takes place. Eventually it will be replaced by some other form of tyranny, but it's apparently the cycle that we're doomed to repeat. Those are hefty words that don't even nearly apply to stuff like not letting a gay person babysit your kid, but the point is that it all feeds the progression of pain. I care so much about the issue of Christianity because I cherish it as a belief and I don't want to see it die. What I do want to see is change within so that it will survive, because I think it's in stasis due to its religious nature (which is not something that I view to be inherent), and I think the world is moving swiftly past it. What I love seeing are people slowly shedding discriminatory ways, and I see it all over this forum. I'm still dealing with that in my own life. I made the mistake of reacting in anger to Christians as a whole, a tremendous issue of mine as of late. It's the frustration derived from watching something you love destroy itself. For that reason I won't leave, no matter how much you recommend that I do, because I still have more than enough personal stock in it. We obviously disagree that it needs improvement in these areas because we fundamentally disagree on what is right and wrong, and I'm okay with that. The fascinating thing to me is that the Christian belief and my own beliefs or others like it are two forces seen by each to be self-destructive while they see themselves as true and right. It's a grand cosmic scheme that I love and that frustrates me to no end, which is why I just can't seem to stop talking about it.
I'd say “blindness to how much you actually are affected”. Most people I know tend to become like mirror images of the ones they hang out with, and incidentally, have no idea the change is taking place. Even the people I don't know but can examine do this. That you cannot find a “perfect” match in agreement isn't really that pertinent. We're not talking about whether two people like strawberries and tater tots, but actual matters of truth. The things you talk and discuss and try to figure out. I hate to play the personal experience card here, but I've been outside the friendship loop and clearly seen how people change based on who they hang with. And the changes have been quick and radical. I've gotten my heart broken over this, so I'll fight you violently when you say there's an “extreme miscalculation over how much this goes on”.