Christ Centered Gamer

I think there's a lot the Church could learn from the Mormon church. Community, service, charity... LDS puts a lot of the Church to shame in these areas.

Glenn Beck really changed my mind about Mormons. I used to believe Mormons were cultists, but the more I listened to him, watched him, saw his heart, I came to realize that even if there are serious doctrinal differences, his heart was one that ached for Yahweh. If that heart wasn't a heart for Messiah, then I didn't know what one looked like.

And now I return to my self-imposed exile...

That's very gracious of you to say!

Here are some other not well know Mormon facts as written by a mormon:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mette-ivi ... lp00000592

Here are some of the biggest heresies that are part of Mormon doctrine:
1. We believe God has a (perfected) body and that the body is an essential part of His divine nature. (We also say that our bodies are temples and this is part of the reason for the strict health code of The Word of Wisdom.)
2. We believe in a universal resurrection and that all humans will continue to grow and become more like God after resurrection.
3. We believe that all souls [ spirits In mormonism] (including Christ and Lucifer) are children of God and participated in a war in Heaven. Some of those souls supported Lucifer and were not allowed to take bodies, but are left to try to possess the bodies of those who were on Christ's side and won the war.
4. We believe that there is no hell (except for a temporary way station) and that there are three kinds [ levels FF] of heaven (telestial, terrestrial, and celestial). [“Outer darkness for 1,000 years then... ” Fyreflye: after which we are annihilated.]
5. We believe that temple rituals like baptism can and must be performed for every person who has ever lived on the earth (which will be the purpose of the thousand years of The Millennium, as well as our temple work).
6. We do not believe in original sin. We believe that God punishes no one for any sins but their own. [they think it was sex … FF]
7. We believe that Christ is the God of this earth [ Devil is the god of this earth, Scripture says.FF ] and that He was the head of a council of "elect souls," including Adam, who helped direct the creation using the "priesthood," also the power of God. [ Practicing taqiya a purposeful lie]
8. We don't pray to saints and we don't believe angels have wings. [ neither do we as Christians FF] In Mormonism, angels are usually resurrected beings that look exactly like anyone else. [ another lie] [2 ways to tell demons form angel: angel will shake your hand you feel it, demons you feel nothing, angels will have blond hair. FF]
9. We believe that marriages and families will remain intact in heaven. Each gets their own area or world so not true. [You have a body of flesh and bone as tangible as mans. FF]
10. We believe in The Book of Mormon as a more correct way to God's will, since it was translated more directly than the Bible. (But we still believe the Bible to be the word of God.) [ more lies as mormon articles of faith says bible is not translated correctly. The Book of mormon condemns polygamy and in doctrine and covenants it threatens damnation of you do not practice polygamy . Pearl of great price the gods have many wives FF ]
Looking at these different doctrines, it might be useful to point out that many of the most heretical ideas of Mormonism actually originated with other Christian denominations before they became part of Mormonism.
1. Marriage rather than celibacy was part of early Catholicism. It was only in 306 A.D. at the Council of Elvira that the Roman Catholic church demanded clerics be unmarried or celibate completely after ordination.
2. The snake of the Garden of Eden was an agent of God and the choice to partake of the fruit was a good one (Sethian). [ serpent seed doctrine] they think if man had not have fallen then mankind would not have happened [no sex in garden]
3. Belief that God has human form (Audianism). [not same as hypostatic union]
4. The current Christian theology of the trinity of God, which Mormons largely reject, was first codified by the "Nicean Crede" in 325 A.D. [lol] [ Not codified then but clarified]
5. Belief that original sin did not taint human nature (Pelegianism).
6. Condemnation of the baptism of infants (Henricians). [ not restricted to them (waldensians)
7. Belief that English people are descendants of the ancient Israelites (Anglo-Israelism).
8. The need to translate the Bible into the many languages of the congregants so they can read it on their own, rather than rely on the interpretation of others (many Protestant religions).
9. The belief that the gifts of prophecy, tongues, revelation, etc continue to this day (Montanism).
10. The denial of bodily indulgences similar to the strict Mormon health code "the Word of Wisdom" (Gnostics).
Some other heresies of Christianity that Mormonism does not accept:
1. Christ was not born divine, but was so virtuous he was "adopted" by God (Adoptionism). ([utterly FALSE]
2. Humans are divine creatures trapped in material bodies (Gnosticism).
3. Belief that through austerity, one can reach perfection in this life (Free Spirit).
4. Belief that God's blessing can be seen through wealth (Puritanism).
5. Rejection of music and dancing as part of worship.
6. Circumcision heresy which demands that all laws, including the law of Moses, must continue to be practiced.
7. 'Sola fida," the Protestant idea that we are saved by faith alone, and not by works or rituals of the church.
8. The idea that Christ died only for the sins of good men who repent, and not for all (Jansenism).
9. Reincarnation (Albigenses).
10. The Trinity is really three separate Gods (Tritheism).
My point with all of this is that one man's heresy is another man's foundational doctrine and it seems odd to me that Protestants as a group would cast stones at Mormons for creating their own version of Christianity when that is exactly what Protestantism is, people who reject parts of Catholicism and reinvent other parts on their own.

Dirkdigdeep wrote:Here are some other not well know Mormon facts as written by a mormon:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mette-ivi ... lp00000592

You know things have gone pear shaped when a Christian is using HuffPo as a source Dirk, has it occurred to you that a liberal news source like HuffPo probably has a desire to smear the LDS Church because of our position on things like Homosexuality and Same-sex marriage? I think you'd do well to think more carefully about your sources, even when they say things you like to hear. The author of your article claims to be a Mormon (and that other Mormons would consider her to be a heretic) Kinda strange that a person who calls herself a Mormon would then proceed to accuse the Church of heresy. Doesn't that raise a red flag for you? This is a propaganda piece. Anyway, it's fun to read these kinds of lists so without further ado:

Dirkdigdeep wrote: Here are some of the biggest heresies that are part of Mormon doctrine:
1. We believe God has a (perfected) body and that the body is an essential part of His divine nature. (We also say that our bodies are temples and this is part of the reason for the strict health code of The Word of Wisdom.)

True. Not sure how this is heresy, but whatever.

Dirkdigdeep wrote: 2. We believe in a universal resurrection and that all humans will continue to grow and become more like God after resurrection.

Sort of. This isn't official doctrine, but something that's more like a tradition and I don't know that all Mormons think so. Maybe Sstavix can offer some insight here.

Dirkdigdeep wrote: 3. We believe that all souls [ spirits In mormonism] (including Christ and Lucifer) are children of God and participated in a war in Heaven. Some of those souls supported Lucifer and were not allowed to take bodies, but are left to try to possess the bodies of those who were on Christ's side and won the war.

I'd phrase this one differently, since it sort of implies a few things that might give the wrong idea, but meh.

Dirkdigdeep wrote: 4. We believe that there is no hell (except for a temporary way station) and that there are three kinds [ levels FF] of heaven (telestial, terrestrial, and celestial). [“Outer darkness for 1,000 years then... ” Fyreflye: after which we are annihilated.]

Er... oversimplified to the point of error

Dirkdigdeep wrote: 5. We believe that temple rituals like baptism can and must be performed for every person who has ever lived on the earth (which will be the purpose of the thousand years of The Millennium, as well as our temple work).

Odd to hear a self-described Mormon use the term "ritual." This thing really does smell like a propaganda piece.

Dirkdigdeep wrote: 6. We do not believe in original sin. We believe that God punishes no one for any sins but their own. [they think it was sex … FF]

I don't understand that last part in brackets?

Dirkdigdeep wrote: 7. We believe that Christ is the God of this earth [ Devil is the god of this earth, Scripture says.FF ] and that He was the head of a council of "elect souls," including Adam, who helped direct the creation using the "priesthood," also the power of God. [ Practicing taqiya a purposeful lie]

This statement doesn't make sense to me.

Dirkdigdeep wrote: 8. We don't pray to saints and we don't believe angels have wings. [ neither do we as Christians FF] In Mormonism, angels are usually resurrected beings that look exactly like anyone else. [ another lie] [2 ways to tell demons form angel: angel will shake your hand you feel it, demons you feel nothing, angels will have blond hair. FF]

I have never heard anyone assert that angels will have blond hair. I don't think the rest of this is very accurate either, but again it's using language to describe something kinda like this, but conveys very little of substance.

Dirkdigdeep wrote: 9. We believe that marriages and families will remain intact in heaven. Each gets their own area or world so not true. [You have a body of flesh and bone as tangible as mans. FF]

This one's about half oversimplification and half about tradition, not doctrine.

Dirkdigdeep wrote: 10. We believe in The Book of Mormon as a more correct way to God's will, since it was translated more directly than the Bible. (But we still believe the Bible to be the word of God.) [ more lies as mormon articles of faith says bible is not translated correctly. The Book of mormon condemns polygamy and in doctrine and covenants it threatens damnation of you do not practice polygamy . Pearl of great price the gods have many wives FF ]

Again, this is a composite of inaccurate statements and distortions.

Dirkdigdeep wrote: Looking at these different doctrines, it might be useful to point out that many of the most heretical ideas of Mormonism actually originated with other Christian denominations before they became part of Mormonism.

Non-specific accusations are really hard to refute, aren't they? It's what makes them useful in a smear article

Dirkdigdeep wrote: 1. Marriage rather than celibacy was part of early Catholicism. It was only in 306 A.D. at the Council of Elvira that the Roman Catholic church demanded clerics be unmarried or celibate completely after ordination.

Relevance?

Dirkdigdeep wrote: 2. The snake of the Garden of Eden was an agent of God and the choice to partake of the fruit was a good one (Sethian). [ serpent seed doctrine] they think if man had not have fallen then mankind would not have happened [no sex in garden]

I guess, maybe. The way this is phrased is pretty distorted.

Dirkdigdeep wrote: 3. Belief that God has human form (Audianism). [not same as hypostatic union]

He does indeed.

Dirkdigdeep wrote: 4. The current Christian theology of the trinity of God, which Mormons largely reject, was first codified by the "Nicean Crede" in 325 A.D. [lol] [ Not codified then but clarified]

Codified. There's a thread on this subject if you're interested in debating it.

Dirkdigdeep wrote: 5. Belief that original sin did not taint human nature (Pelegianism).

Mmmmm sort of?

Dirkdigdeep wrote: 6. Condemnation of the baptism of infants (Henricians). [ not restricted to them (waldensians)

True, we don't baptize infants.

Dirkdigdeep wrote: 7. Belief that English people are descendants of the ancient Israelites (Anglo-Israelism).

English as in people from the island of Great Britain? Nope. More like ancient Mezoamericans.

Dirkdigdeep wrote: 8. The need to translate the Bible into the many languages of the congregants so they can read it on their own, rather than rely on the interpretation of others (many Protestant religions).

How is this supposed to be a bad thing?

Dirkdigdeep wrote: 9. The belief that the gifts of prophecy, tongues, revelation, etc continue to this day (Montanism).

They do.

Dirkdigdeep wrote: 10. The denial of bodily indulgences similar to the strict Mormon health code "the Word of Wisdom" (Gnostics).

How is this a bad thing?

Dirkdigdeep wrote: Some other heresies of Christianity that Mormonism does not accept:
1. Christ was not born divine, but was so virtuous he was "adopted" by God (Adoptionism). ([utterly FALSE]

Yep. Utterly false.

Dirkdigdeep wrote: 2. Humans are divine creatures trapped in material bodies (Gnosticism).

"Trapped?" No.

Dirkdigdeep wrote: 3. Belief that through austerity, one can reach perfection in this life (Free Spirit).

Not true.

Dirkdigdeep wrote: 4. Belief that God's blessing can be seen through wealth (Puritanism).

Not true.

Dirkdigdeep wrote: 5. Rejection of music and dancing as part of worship.

Not true.

Dirkdigdeep wrote: 6. Circumcision heresy which demands that all laws, including the law of Moses, must continue to be practiced.

Not true.

Dirkdigdeep wrote: 7. 'Sola fida," the Protestant idea that we are saved by faith alone, and not by works or rituals of the church.

Not exactly, no.

Dirkdigdeep wrote: 8. The idea that Christ died only for the sins of good men who repent, and not for all (Jansenism).

Oversimplification.

Dirkdigdeep wrote: 9. Reincarnation (Albigenses).

Not true.

Dirkdigdeep wrote: 10. The Trinity is really three separate Gods (Tritheism).

See my comments above on that.

Dirkdigdeep wrote: My point with all of this is that one man's heresy is another man's foundational doctrine and it seems odd to me that Protestants as a group would cast stones at Mormons for creating their own version of Christianity when that is exactly what Protestantism is, people who reject parts of Catholicism and reinvent other parts on their own.

Do you agree with this part, or did you just copy/paste the whole article? Next time you may want to enclose that in quote tags, or use some other mechanism to make it clear what parts are your own words and what came from the article.

So basically, this article is grossly inaccurate and a very poor description of LDS beliefs. You'd be well advised to avoid it and seek more reliable sources.

I pretty much agree with everything ArcticFox said, including the reliance on Huffington Post as a source. Really? Just by citing that as your source you practically render your entire argument invalid....

ArcticFox wrote:

Dirkdigdeep wrote: 2. We believe in a universal resurrection and that all humans will continue to grow and become more like God after resurrection.

Sort of. This isn't official doctrine, but something that's more like a tradition and I don't know that all Mormons think so. Maybe Sstavix can offer some insight here.

This isn't official doctrine, but I had a bit of a personal revelation in relation to this not too long after I joined the church. It makes perfect sense to me, but before you decide if it's true or false, pray honestly about it and see what you think.

The LDS church often refers to "God the Father" as "Heavenly Father" (in contrast to Jesus Christ, who is Heavenly Father's son. That gets into the debate about trinitarianism, though, and there's a different thread about that around here somewhere). It got me thinking about the nature of children. The purpose of children is to grow into adults, right? And often, the adults resemble their parents in remarkable ways.

From a spiritual perspective, this also could be true. If God truly is "Our Father, who art in Heaven," is it really that much of a stretch to believe that, when we get to that point, where we will resemble Heavenly Father? We were made in His image, after all.

From a broader perspective, I received the impression of a butterfly. The stages of a butterfly are that of a caterpillar, a cocoon and, finally, a mature butterfly. Before we came to Earth (yes, the LDS faith believes that we existed in Heaven before we were born) we had spiritual bodies. They were immature, but we lived with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ, and we needed to go through this process in order to spiritually mature. We came to Earth, where our spiritual forms were encased in this material form - our "cocoon" state, as it were. And just as a butterfly is cut off from air and the elements as it develops within its cocoon, likewise we're largely cut off from the knowledge and comfort we had before we came to Earth. Fortunately, we still have a means to communicate with God - through prayer. This form is our chance to develop and grow in a spiritual fashion - since we don't have direct access to God in our mortal forms, we need to learn how to do things on our own in terms of spirituality. That's why free will is so important - so we can develop and grow on our own terms, rather than being forced into one specific way. After we die, we are able to leave our mortal shells behind and - theoretically - develop into our spiritually mature forms. Based upon the clues we have here on Earth, watching how other animals and people grow to resemble their parents, I think there's sufficient evidence to believe that we will develop into forms that resemble God. And just as children grow into adults and beget more children, I think it's also possible for us to do the same on a spiritual level - to become like God and eventually beget spiritual children of our own.

Now before anyone raises any protests about how the LDS church worships multiple gods, let me put the brakes on right there. First of all, these thoughts - this revelation - is to me. I am not a church authority, so don't get to thinking that I'm spouting actual doctrine. Secondly, even if you bring up the idea of polytheism to other LDS members, be prepared to be (gently) laughed at. While it is possible that people could develop into gods of their own right, Heavenly Father has made it abundantly clear that He is the only one we are to worship. We are not to direct our prayers to the prophets (living or dead), church authorities, saints, our ancestors, Mary or even Jesus Christ. This is clearly spelled out in the Ten Commandments - "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." Even Jesus Christ instructed us to pray specifically to "Our Father who Art In Heaven." (Notice the word "our" in the Lord's prayer - further evidence that Jesus' father is also our father, and that on a spiritual level, we are all brothers and sisters.) The Mormon faith worships Heavenly Father, and strives to follow the example of His only begotten son, Jesus Christ. The LDS church is a Christian church, and anyone who says otherwise is either misguided (possibly repeating things other people have said without doing the research on their own) or has an agenda and is deliberately trying to make the Mormons look bad. Possibly both.You can argue that it isn't the true church - and no one will truly know for certain until after this life - but to claim that it isn't Christian is patently false.

Very interesting things!

I personally am not a Mormon, nor do I ever intend to be. But it is interesting to get a Mormons POV on their own religion, never heard it before.

To answer LegoFan's question, the majority (if not all) of the various 'Christian' churches do believe that Jesus was at one point in time a man. I for one believe He was a man, I believe He was on this earth for 33 years as the Bible states and that at the end of His life He was crucified on a cross so that we might be cleansed of our sins and have eternal salvation in Him. Many churches have varying beliefs on Jesus' humanity, some believed that He was secretly married and had a family and that His descendants live today. Some believe that Jesus was never in Heaven before He was born, that He didn't even exist before He was born. Some believe that Jesus was even a regular man like us, that He was just as sinful and evil as us but that when He died He achieved some form of holiness that made Him perfect. Other religions such as Islam and Buddhism just say that He was only a prophet, nothing special, just a person doing nice things and saying what God wanted Him to say.

Well, to those people I would say, Read the New Testament, what does it say about Jesus? It says He is perfect. It says He is the Son of God. It says that He was the only person who could die on the cross for us. It says that He fully human, and fully God. (which is tough to comprehend) It says that 3 days after He died he rose again from the grave and appeared to up to 500 people at one time, before ascending up to Heaven. It says many things about Him, I would encourage anyone of various religions to read the Bible and seriously consider Jesus and what it says about Him.

RedPlums wrote: I believe He was on this earth for 33 years as the Bible states ....

I know that it's common speculation that He was in his 30s when He was crucified, but where in the Bible does it give his specific age? I think I missed that, but I'm interested to see where that was.

Luke 3:23 says that he was around thirty when he began his ministry and three passovers are mentioned throughout his ministry

That makes sense, then. Very cool!

Well I got two questions to ask then:

1) How does the Mormon Church understand things like the Trinity? I'm sure this has been answered somewhere else, but remind me again cause it seems like Trinitarian Christians understand the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit differently than Mormons do. What are the similarities and differences?

2) I have read that it is Mormon teaching that before the revelations Joseph Smith received, it was said that the Church fell into a state of apostasy very early on. I believe the term used for this kind of thinking is Restorationist, where the Church became corrupt and had to be restored in some later time.

Is this true? If it is, then how does the Mormon Church understand their relation to other Christian Denominations in light of this teaching?

RoosterOnAStick wrote: 1) How does the Mormon Church understand things like the Trinity?

This thread may answer your question on that.

RoosterOnAStick wrote: 2) I have read that it is Mormon teaching that before the revelations Joseph Smith received, it was said that the Church fell into a state of apostasy very early on. I believe the term used for this kind of thinking is Restorationist, where the Church became corrupt and had to be restored in some later time.

Is this true? If it is, then how does the Mormon Church understand their relation to other Christian Denominations in light of this teaching?

It is true. The LDS perspective is that all Christian churches contain at least some truth in them, but none of them have the fullness of the Gospel, nor do they have true Priesthood Authority. For us, it isn't a matter of "we're right and you're wrong" but rather a case of having more of the Gospel to work with.

Ok cool, I'll check it out then. Probably post stuff on that thread regarding the Trinity if I have anything worthwhile to add. It is to me a key issue as I consider this a core doctrine of the faith, but I have been kind of musing on more of the nature of it and why God would be a Trinity in the first place. Been rereading through my old C.S. Lewis stuff and found my audio book of Screwtape Letters read by John Cleese. Not sure if I can do this justice but we'll see at some point.

As far as apostasy goes, yeah I can kind of see that. Obviously if this were in fact true we here today can't really be entirely faulted for being caught up in something we didn't have a direct hand in creating. Naturally I don't think such claims are accurate but I guess if for sake of argument that it was then is why is called an apostasy? There are some very serious implications with that word and while I appreciate the charitable response to the question, why would it be called as such? How would it have come about?

RoosterOnAStick wrote: Naturally I don't think such claims are accurate but I guess if for sake of argument that it was then is why is called an apostasy? There are some very serious implications with that word and while I appreciate the charitable response to the question, why would it be called as such? How would it have come about?

There's a very detailed (and incredibly dry) book written by James Talmage called The Great Apostasy that discusses the subject from both the priesthood perspective and the doctrinal perspective. In terms of doctrine, it shows how Christian doctrine gradually evolved over the centuries as interpretations changed, new doctrines were added, etc. It also shows how the originally unbroken line of priesthood succession eventually fell away, with particular emphasis on some of the chaos surrounding the office of the Pope during the Middle Ages and the Renaissance. I haven't read it in a while, so I can't reliably talk much about the specifics, but it is a pretty interesting read if you're a history buff.

Here's a 16 minute video that covers some of the issues being discussed in this thread, and the LDS perspective on some of these things in a cinematic way.

Along those lines, just consider how much the Bible has changed over the centuries, at the hands of different interpreters and translators. I remember hearing about how Martin Luther wanted to rewrite the Bible in order to remove all the women from it, seeing them as somehow "unclean." (I don't know how he's manage to do this in regards to Mary, though....) There's also the books of the Apocrypha, which some Christian sects use, and others pretend they don't exist. Not to mention the Gnostic gospels.... And, of course, the Book of Mormon.

Whether or not these edits were actually inspired by God, or the results of men deciding what they believed was best for the Bible, is a matter of faith. Personally, I'm of the mindset that all these resources should be made available to anyone seriously seeking the truth, who is willing to approach their faith with prayer and humility. God will let you know what is right and wrong, if you ask of Him. He won't steer a person wrong, but that person also needs to be receptive to the messages, even if they don't make any sense.

Sstavix wrote:He won't steer a person wrong, but that person also needs to be receptive to the messages, even if they don't seem to make any sense at first.

I added the underlined text as my only nitpick of a great post.