SNL attacks Christianity

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Re: SNL attacks Christianity

Postby ChickenSoup » Wed May 04, 2016 5:02 pm

Once again, they're satirizing a select segment of society. I don't think they're obligated to dumb it down for people. If people use SNL skits as a basis for the formation of their political and religious opinions, that's not SNL's fault, is it?
I don't know. Is it? SNL is the reason a surprising number of people think Sarah Palin said "I can see Russia from my house!" which, as I mentioned earlier, was also quoted by Wolf Blitzer of CNN. SNL can't possibly be unaware of the level of influence they have.
So that's Wolf Blitzer's fault.
I also disagree on the sentiment that it's bad form to satirize select groups in media meant for general distribution (even if it's really on a nominal basis). That's the point of satire, isn't it? To make witty/funny cultural or personal criticisms? I know your counter-argument was "yeah, but this wasn't even criticizing what people are actually like," but my two comments on that are 1) I know people who ARE like that, even if they're a minority, and 2) once again, that's a criticism we should have of SNL's writing, not the principle of generally distributed media satirizing a group.
Do you suppose people who are ready to use this skit as an example of how Christians are will make much effort to differentiate between people like the ones you know and the others? I've never once seen someone rail about Christians and make an effort to acknowledge that we aren't all a single homogeneous group.
I mean, you could say the same thing about Christian propaganda in regards to atheists or even other Christians who believe in, say, evolution. My own family and some friends from high school are Exhibit A for that. It's the same thing: a cheap way to say "Heh, THOSE people, right?" and get some laughs.

Anyway, once again:
Do you suppose people who are ready to use this skit as an example of how Christians are will make much effort to differentiate between people like the ones you know and the others?
So you admit that your criticism is people who take skits and use that to form the basis of their opinions?
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Re: SNL attacks Christianity

Postby ArcticFox » Wed May 04, 2016 5:14 pm

So that's Wolf Blitzer's fault.
So who's to blame when nobody called him on it? Nobody called CNN on it? Was there a retraction? Did anyone even care?
I mean, you could say the same thing about Christian propaganda in regards to atheists or even other Christians who believe in, say, evolution. My own family and some friends from high school are Exhibit A for that. It's the same thing: a cheap way to say "Heh, THOSE people, right?" and get some laughs.
So is that helping matters?
So you admit that your criticism is people who take skits and use that to form the basis of their opinions?
I don't know what you mean by "admit." I'm not aware of having denied that. But do you honestly believe that the people who write this stuff don't know how it will be perceived? I mean, obviously there's no shortage of people who will rush to defend them and try to sell the idea that they're just innocent satirists who have no earthly idea how the material will be regarded by the public, and should bear no blame for it at all.

Why do you guys have such a problem with Christians finding sloppy satire like this annoying? What drives you to defend SNL's skit so zealously, especially when you don't even like SNL?
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Re: SNL attacks Christianity

Postby Deepfreeze32 » Wed May 04, 2016 5:16 pm

So that's Wolf Blitzer's fault.
So who's to blame when nobody called him on it? Nobody called CNN on it? Was there a retraction? Did anyone even care?
This IS CNN we're talking about here...

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Re: SNL attacks Christianity

Postby ArcticFox » Wed May 04, 2016 5:17 pm

This IS CNN we're talking about here...
Touche'
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Re: SNL attacks Christianity

Postby ChickenSoup » Wed May 04, 2016 6:50 pm

So that's Wolf Blitzer's fault.
So who's to blame when nobody called him on it? Nobody called CNN on it? Was there a retraction? Did anyone even care?
And that IS a problem--but, once again, not directly related to an SNL skit. Mostly just that American news, left and right, is largely just utter trash.
I mean, you could say the same thing about Christian propaganda in regards to atheists or even other Christians who believe in, say, evolution. My own family and some friends from high school are Exhibit A for that. It's the same thing: a cheap way to say "Heh, THOSE people, right?" and get some laughs.
So is that helping matters?
Didn't say it was. I'm saying the widespread reaction to the SNL skit was hypocritical. And, to a lesser extent (in terms of how I've seen people acting), because I'm tired of the attitude among that it's all fun and games for free speech until it starts to turn against conservatives.
So you admit that your criticism is people who take skits and use that to form the basis of their opinions?
I don't know what you mean by "admit." I'm not aware of having denied that. But do you honestly believe that the people who write this stuff don't know how it will be perceived? I mean, obviously there's no shortage of people who will rush to defend them and try to sell the idea that they're just innocent satirists who have no earthly idea how the material will be regarded by the public, and should bear no blame for it at all.
It's not their job to dumb themselves down to the level where no one will take it the wrong way. And while I'm not sticking my head in the sand and saying "The media would never deceive us!", I also don't think there's a team of evil liberal atheists snickering to themselves and thinking "maybe THIS will destabilize the American family, TEE HEE!"
Why do you guys have such a problem with Christians finding sloppy satire like this annoying? What drives you to defend SNL's skit so zealously, especially when you don't even like SNL?
Because the criticism ISN'T "this is sloppy satire," with nuanced opinions about how cultural criticism should be conducted. It's clickbaity stuff like "SNL attacks Christianity"
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Re: SNL attacks Christianity

Postby ArcticFox » Wed May 04, 2016 10:04 pm

And that IS a problem--but, once again, not directly related to an SNL skit. Mostly just that American news, left and right, is largely just utter trash.
Can't argue with that. The problem is people still listen to it.
Didn't say it was. I'm saying the widespread reaction to the SNL skit was hypocritical. And, to a lesser extent (in terms of how I've seen people acting), because I'm tired of the attitude among that it's all fun and games for free speech until it starts to turn against conservatives.
Who's being hypocritical? Are you saying Christians aren't allowed to be annoyed at being misrepresented? Since we're talking about things we're tired of, I'm pretty tired of watching Christians get attacked for expressing disagreement with... well prettymuch anything. We can't even complain about a crappy SNL skit now without a line of people scrambling over each other to be the first to tell us we're making mountains out of molehills or we should just shut up. Everybody has a legitimate gripe except Christians?

You and I both know if that skit had lampooned some LGBT organization or Islam, people would be up in arms and if some Christian/Conservative came along and said "you're making a big deal out of nothing just settle down." They'd be torn limb from limb for being hateful, callous, *-phobic, etc etc etc. As far as I'm concerned, that's where the hypocrisy is.
It's not their job to dumb themselves down to the level where no one will take it the wrong way. And while I'm not sticking my head in the sand and saying "The media would never deceive us!", I also don't think there's a team of evil liberal atheists snickering to themselves and thinking "maybe THIS will destabilize the American family, TEE HEE!"
Oh I wouldn't give them that much credit. Whoever wrote that skit basically lumped together all the worst stereotypes about Christians and put them in a skit they knew would please their left-leaning viewers. No conspiracy, just opportunism.
Because the criticism ISN'T "this is sloppy satire," with nuanced opinions about how cultural criticism should be conducted. It's clickbaity stuff like "SNL attacks Christianity"
So it's the title of the thread you don't like? That's it? Have you heard any calls in this thread for SNL to be shut down? Anybody here endorsing hate mail or violence? Anything at all besides dismay and annoyance at the double standard we're living under? You came right out and asked me what action should be taken, and I said no action. Did that matter at all, or am I still lumped in with whatever stereotype is being applied here?
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Re: SNL attacks Christianity

Postby ArchAngel » Wed May 04, 2016 10:25 pm

Think SNL is for Middle America, do ya?

Most TV programming is meant to appeal to the markets wher ethe most people are. That means cities. Big cities. You're suggesting that SNL gives a wet fart what the people in scattered towns around the Midwest think when they're directing their programming and generating advertising revenue from large city markets. I'll leave it to you to figure out where the largest markets are in the U.S.
I don't mean the Cursed Earth- I mean, the Midwest. I'm speaking more politically middle.
I bow to your overwhelming objectivity in an analysis of a movie that isn't meant for atheists in the first place.
Because it's wrong?
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Re: SNL attacks Christianity

Postby ArcticFox » Wed May 04, 2016 10:32 pm

I don't mean the Cursed Earth- I mean, the Midwest. I'm speaking more politically middle.
Gotcha.

I have my doubts about SNL being anything but left-leaning.
Because it's wrong?
Yeah. It's really bizarre to me that you'd watch a movie like God's Not Dead and expect it to be anything but what it is. It's a Christian propaganda movie. Spoiler alert: The Atheist character doesn't come off too well. Like I said before, it would be like someone watching a Neil deGrasse Tyson science show and whining because Creationism isn't given any screen time. If I were to gripe about that would you take me seriously?
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Re: SNL attacks Christianity

Postby ArchAngel » Wed May 04, 2016 11:01 pm

I don't mean the Cursed Earth- I mean, the Midwest. I'm speaking more politically middle.
Gotcha.

I have my doubts about SNL being anything but left-leaning.[/quote]Everything seems left-leaning on the right. Actually, I would put them more left-leaning.
It's a Christian propaganda movie.
So you admit it's garbage.
Spoiler alert: The Atheist character doesn't come off too well. Like I said before, it would be like someone watching a Neil deGrasse Tyson science show and whining because Creationism isn't given any screen time. If I were to gripe about that would you take me seriously?
I certainly don't expect them to come to conclusion that, hey, maybe there is no God. But if NdT put out a film where the Creationist professor was an overly angry caricature of a man who demands his students to prove that God created the earth in 6 days, yeah. That'd be a little goofy.
If I recall, too, you had some umbrage on the portrayal of the church in the Cosmos series, and I'd agree, they could have done better job.
And I'll give you this that much of Hollywood's portrayal of conservative christianity is pretty bad. I'm still standing by the SNL skit as being on point, but in general it's usually subpar. They definitely like the sort of "I believe in God, but I'm not Religious" sort of zone.
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Re: SNL attacks Christianity

Postby ArcticFox » Wed May 04, 2016 11:12 pm

Everything seems left-leaning on the right. Actually, I would put them more left-leaning.
So we agree?
So you admit it's garbage.
That isn't what I said.
I certainly don't expect them to come to conclusion that, hey, maybe there is no God. But if NdT put out a film where the Creationist professor was an overly angry caricature of a man who demands his students to prove that God created the earth in 6 days, yeah. That'd be a little goofy.
If I recall, too, you had some umbrage on the portrayal of the church in the Cosmos series, and I'd agree, they could have done better job.
And I'll give you this that much of Hollywood's portrayal of conservative christianity is pretty bad. I'm still standing by the SNL skit as being on point, but in general it's usually subpar. They definitely like the sort of "I believe in God, but I'm not Religious" sort of zone.
And you hit the nail on the head with that last part. The only kind of Christianity that is tolerated in pop culture is that wishy-washy sort of hobby Christianity where people claim to follow Jesus but then ignore prettymuch everything He said.
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Re: SNL attacks Christianity

Postby ArchAngel » Thu May 05, 2016 12:19 am

Everything seems left-leaning on the right. Actually, I would put them more left-leaning.
So we agree?
Partially. Just because it's left-leaning doesn't mean it's only for the left. Hollywood in general is left leaning, but it's really marketed for everyone.
So you admit it's garbage.
That isn't what I said.
You called propaganda.
And you hit the nail on the head with that last part. The only kind of Christianity that is tolerated in pop culture is that wishy-washy sort of hobby Christianity where people claim to follow Jesus but then ignore prettymuch everything He said.
Now, that's pretty dismissive of a large number of Christians who care very much what they believe, but even though it doesn't align very much with the Church.

Now, if we want to be fair, also, Hollywood is generally pretty bad with handling diversity.
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Re: SNL attacks Christianity

Postby ArcticFox » Thu May 05, 2016 12:38 am

Partially. Just because it's left-leaning doesn't mean it's only for the left. Hollywood in general is left leaning, but it's really marketed for everyone.
Yes it certainly is, which is my point re: SNL.
You called propaganda.
I'm going to assume you have a better handle on what that word means than that. For anyone who doesn't:

Propaganda: information, ideas, or rumors deliberately spread widely to help or harm a person, group, movement, institution, nation, etc.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/propaganda?s=t
Now, that's pretty dismissive of a large number of Christians who care very much what they believe, but even though it doesn't align very much with the Church.

Now, if we want to be fair, also, Hollywood is generally pretty bad with handling diversity.
Those Christians you refer to are not well tolerated by pop culture either, unless their particular beliefs support current cultural norms. I would question the sincerity of those beliefs, but that's a discussion for another time.
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Re: SNL attacks Christianity

Postby ArchAngel » Thu May 05, 2016 6:52 pm

Yes it certainly is, which is my point re: SNL.
Not quite. Left is not anti-christian by any means. But they are more prone to poke fun at more further right positions, which is what we're seeing.
I'm going to assume you have a better handle on what that word means than that. For anyone who doesn't:

Propaganda: information, ideas, or rumors deliberately spread widely to help or harm a person, group, movement, institution, nation, etc.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/propaganda?s=t
I still stand by what I'm saying; it's glorified advertisement, but with a more sinister, divisive edge. So, maybe worse than garbage.
Those Christians you refer to are not well tolerated by pop culture either, unless their particular beliefs support current cultural norms. I would question the sincerity of those beliefs, but that's a discussion for another time.
[/quote]Everybody has some beef with "cultural norms," so I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this.
But to question to the sincerity of one's belief? Come on, man. We can only really do that for politicians and extremists we'd rather not associate with.
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Re: SNL attacks Christianity

Postby ArcticFox » Thu May 05, 2016 7:11 pm

Not quite. Left is not anti-christian by any means. But they are more prone to poke fun at more further right positions, which is what we're seeing.
Oh I'd argue that the left is absolutely, irrevocably anti-Christian, in effect if not necessarily intent. Probably a debate for another time.
I still stand by what I'm saying; it's glorified advertisement, but with a more sinister, divisive edge. So, maybe worse than garbage.
Divisive I'll grant you, but sinister? No.
Everybody has some beef with "cultural norms," so I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this. But to question to the sincerity of one's belief? Come on, man. We can only really do that for politicians and extremists we'd rather not associate with.
When I see an entire category of self-described Christians claiming that "their" Jesus would be totally okay with some of the things they're doing, in defiance of what's plainly written in Scripture, then they're putting their desire to fit into secular culture above spiritual truth. So yeah, that's a motive I question.
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Re: SNL attacks Christianity

Postby ArchAngel » Thu May 05, 2016 7:23 pm

Divisive I'll grant you, but sinister? No.
Sinistar propaganda? yes.
Image

Perhaps, sinister was an overspeak, as it implies a more malicious intent.
When I see an entire category of self-described Christians claiming that "their" Jesus would be totally okay with some of the things they're doing, in defiance of what's plainly written in Scripture, then they're putting their desire to fit into secular culture above spiritual truth. So yeah, that's a motive I question.
Please, scripture is anything but clear. Unless, of course, we are still making grain offerings, women are wearing head coverings in church, etc.
And even if they don't believe the Bible is inerrant doesn't make their belief any less sincere. Just different.
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