Organized Religion: The Source of Evil?

[ArchAngel]

I'll reply to your points later, but do you happen to live in Coeur d'Alene? I have a buddy who used to live there.
I only ask because I know you're a Idahoan, and I recall that Coeur d'Alene was right next to Spokane.

Another tidbit, for the longest time, I pronounced it spo-CANE.

[Sstavix]

Another tidbit, for the longest time, I pronounced it spo-CANE.

*GASP!!!* /unfriend.

I'll reply to your points later, but do you happen to live in Coeur d'Alene? I have a buddy who used to live there.
I only ask because I know you're a Idahoan, and I recall that Coeur d'Alene was right next to Spokane.

I do not live in CdA (and points to you for actually spelling it correctly!), but I've visited there many, many times. I grew up on the foothills of Mt. Spokane (a short drive from the ski resort) and lived in Spokane County all my life until I moved to Idaho with my wife.

[ArcticFox]

Well, I'll try to keep up with these WoTs, but I might have to start condensing my replies. I don't want to ignore points you guys have made, so, I'll do my best to answer as much in one section and leave individual replies afterwards.

Yeah I'll try and do the same. I think we're starting to move into the phase where we either agree to disagree or find more stuff in common.


<<Sorry, I was going to insert some summation of points, but I can't at the moment. I'll just post it later. Or something. Who knows. I might just take a nap. I have to practice the cello, too, so that might happen.>>

Fair enough, that statement can do with a little clarification. Religion can and has acted as a catalyst. It's not an inclusive, nor exclusive, statement about religion. Religion has more facets than that, and there are other institutions that catalyzes evil, but there are elements to the nature of religion that are prone to perpetuating and even accelerating evil acts.

Alright, I'll concede that, with the caveat that the underlying source of the evil is cultural and/or a result of manipulation.

And we must take up arms against all sorts of brainwashing, but I would not so quickly make the jihadis just pawns in a Imam's political agenda. The clerics can believe it in just as much; blind leading the blind.

I don't doubt it. I suspect the higher you go in the echelons of power the more likely you'll find someone who's playing the game and isn't a true believer. (Or is a believer in the religion, but is self aware enough to know what they're doing)

It's not, and yes. Correlation != causation. You'd have to demonstrate a causal relationship.
When I talk about some of the harms religion has done, I'm not pointing out that religious people have done them, but rather the teachings that motivate and justify such actions.

It wouldn't be too hard to demonstrate the cause. In the example of the Civil War, you can't read five lines of any document written by a Union leader where he isn't invoking the will of God in justifying their cause.

Nobody thinks that. And by nobody, I mean the statistic nobody. There are definitely some gnostic atheists, but by and large, from Dawkins to Hitchens to Dennet to Harris to Dillahunty to little ol' me, we are agnostic atheists. The only people who I ever saw assert the claim that atheists actively believe there is no god are theistic apologists.

If you say so, but of all the atheists I've met, you're the only one to say this. I'll have to take your word for it on the famous guys.

Yay! we've slain the WoT! (I feel a T-shirt design coming on...)

[ArchAngel]

Haha, if I was better at picture making, there'd be one of Kratimos, Guy DeLeonesse, and a lizard dude standing over the rubble of a WoT.
Includo Diem. Siege the day.

Alright, I'll concede that, with the caveat that the underlying source of the evil is cultural and/or a result of manipulation.

Well, the source of evil is the baser nature of man. The source of good, at least I argue, is the loftier nature of man.

I don't doubt it. I suspect the higher you go in the echelons of power the more likely you'll find someone who's playing the game and isn't a true believer. (Or is a believer in the religion, but is self aware enough to know what they're doing)

I generally don't make the same assumptions. I like to think that the pope is catholic, but I generally default on assuming people believe what they claim to believe. There is, I imagine, a sort of cynicism that happens as you go higher up, kind of like growing up and realizing there isn't anything special or mature about adults. We're just kids who can drink beer.

It wouldn't be too hard to demonstrate the cause. In the example of the Civil War, you can't read five lines of any document written by a Union leader where he isn't invoking the will of God in justifying their cause.

Well, so did the Southern leaders. What was the tag line for this one civil war movie? One side fought in the name of God, the other for his kingdom on earth. Something like that. Both axis (Gott Mit Uns) and allies invoked God as well. This, probably more out of habit than anything.

You know, if you ever want simplicity, there's always the Civil War. /sarcasm

If you say so, but of all the atheists I've met, you're the only one to say this. I'll have to take your word for it on the famous guys.

Well, if you could ever introduce me to one, I'm interested on how he can explain himself. I've never seen it argued and I don't know of any atheist who would claim that.

*GASP!!!* /unfriend.

You know what, it should be pronounced that way. Or Spo-can-EE. That's just a confusing spelling.

[ArcticFox]

I generally don't make the same assumptions. I like to think that the pope is catholic, but I generally default on assuming people believe what they claim to believe. There is, I imagine, a sort of cynicism that happens as you go higher up, kind of like growing up and realizing there isn't anything special or mature about adults. We're just kids who can drink beer.

I kinda want to think that too (and it's very easy to believe it of the current pope) but I'm a bit cynical so it's hard. I do believe the LDS Prophet is legit, and I'd venture to say most well-known religious leaders are.

That said, one way to spot the phonies might be to see how the organization behaves on their watch. Is it helping communities? Is it waging war?

You know, if you ever want simplicity, there's always the Civil War. /sarcasm

Truf.

Well, if you could ever introduce me to one, I'm interested on how he can explain himself. I've never seen it argued and I don't know of any atheist who would claim that.

Yeah I think the reasoning goes something like this: The default position should be that there isn't a God, just like your default is to not believe that there's a kicka** hibachi restaurant at the center of the Earth.

*GASP!!!* /unfriend.

You know what, it should be pronounced that way. Or Spo-can-EE. That's just a confusing spelling.[/quote]

Gonna have to side with Arch on this one, Brozilla. Mormon solidarity only goes so far

[ArchAngel]

Yuss! Spokane's got their pronunciation wrong all along!

Yeah I think the reasoning goes something like this: The default position should be that there isn't a God, just like your default is to not believe that there's a kicka** hibachi restaurant at the center of the Earth.

Well, I do share that. The default position of any claim is non-belief until it's been reasonably demonstrated.

So, maybe this is why you think most atheists make the positive claim, maybe on any other day, me as well. I do find the concept of god, especially standard religious conceptions of such an entity, to be just highly improbable. The only thing, I suppose, is I don't claim to have positive knowledge that there is and can be no god, but it's not an idea I give credence, until I am provided evidence that makes me think differently.

[Sstavix]

Yuss! Spokane's got their pronunciation wrong all along!

Maybe they got it from the same people who learned how to spell Coeur d'Alene.

Wait... those are both from Native American.

You bunch of racists!

The only thing, I suppose, is I don't claim to have positive knowledge that there is and can be no god, but it's not an idea I give credence, until I am provided evidence that makes me think differently.

Since you can't prove a negative, this is unlikely to happen. But why do you seem so quick to dismiss the claims of those who have reported experiences with God and/or the supernatural?

<<Sorry, I was going to insert some summation of points, but I can't at the moment. I'll just post it later. Or something. Who knows. I might just take a nap. I have to practice the cello, too, so that might happen.>>

This sounds like my thought process.

Yay, ice cream!

[ArcticFox]

Hey there's a quote there attributed to me that was Arch's.

[Sstavix]

Was there? Sorry about that - I thought it was you. I was too busy eating ice cram at the time to notice that it was a quote from a previous post.

Ice cream is all gone now.

[ArcticFox]

Hmmm in order to make a ruling on this I need to know what flavor of ice cream it was.

[Sstavix]

Haagen Dazs Caramel Cone. It was quite tasty!

[ArcticFox]

Very well, you are acquitted on the grounds that the delicious ice cream is overwhelming to the senses

[Comotto]

Satan is the source of evil. The anointing of the apostles shows the intent of Christ for His believers to be lead, God's Word is perfect and does not need interpretation. Satans's ability to manipulate the human ego causes bad choices by humans. It is good for us to rest once a week and gather to give thanks, praise and witness. It is necessary to have ministers that are specialists in keeping us focused in spiritual matters and overcome bad choices.

CARZ