RedPlums wrote:I'm beginning to think that we're arguing just for the sake of arguing. Hmmm...
Nah, we're debating for fun!
I mean, ultimately, what one thinks about this particular question isn't going to determine the state of their eternal salvation one way or another, as long as they don't turn away and find out who is right the hard way
RedPlums wrote:
Well, let me start this off by saying that a person needs to consider that God loves us so much that He gave His Son to buy us back from our sin. His love overshadows everything else and nothing that there is nothing we could ever do to cause this salvation to be lost. To say that we could lose salvation is to say the we are in control of our own salvation and that the ultimate sacrifice that Jesus did is of no effect.
We are in control of it though. Coming to Jesus in the first place is an act we undertake of our own free will, isn't it? The gift of Salvation is offered, but not forced upon us. Jesus paid the price for our sins on the cross, but we still individually have to accept it in order to benefit from it.
See, that's the problem with a doctrine like OSAS... it forces one into a philosophical corner where, in order to be consistent, you have to start supporting it with more and more difficult claims. That's what leads to things like Calvinism, where you literally have NO power to either accept or reject Salvation because of predestination.
RedPlums wrote:
A Person who willingly, humbly, repents of sin and turns towards the cross, trusting Christ as their Savior, will be saved (Acts 16:31. John 6:37, John 14:6). That salvation is once and for all, eternal and secure. Those who truly trust in Christ are saved once, and saved always.
If because of your sinful deeds or lack of good deeds you lose your eternal security then your good deeds would become part of your salvation, something that Ephesians 2:8-9 clearly disproves. This would also place a burden on oneself, and one would always have to be trying to do enough good to outweigh our sin. To deny eternal security in such a way is to support a "Faith-Plus-Works" salvation.
Simply doing evil deeds alone isn't the thing that breaks our connection with Jesus Christ. It's the willful turning away from Him that does that.
RedPlums wrote:
I think we must leave out the two parables that are aforesaid, we interpret those differently and thus our arguments and answers will never satisfy the other. Maybe you agree with me on this?
Yeah I mean if we see it that differently then I agree there's no point in beating a dead horse, though I was hoping to hear your thoughts on my comments in my previous post.
RedPlums wrote:
Two of the devil's most cunning devices is to first convince men/women who are seeking to find eternal life and salvation that they can go to heaven by doing good works and earning salvation. Second is to misrepresent salvation by persuading them they can lose their salvation. It is one of the worse false teachings that the devil has made man a party too. Satan has done so well in this that people believe that if they do not live right, or if they falter or wain in their faith, they could lose their salvation. In other words, God will cast them out and withdraw His grace and mercy. What loving God would do that?
Why would the idea that Salvation CAN be rejected be a tool of Satan? It seems to me that if I'm wrong and Salvation cannot be lost, then nothing bad happens. People who got saved and tried to turn away still get to go to Heaven. If, on the other hand, I'm right, then it would mean we need to be extra careful, and be less likely to fall away so that we can keep the gift we've been given. Which of those two would you say is more useful to someone whose goal is to keep as many people out of Heaven as possible? It's sort of like Pascal's Wager, where one might choose to believe in God because if you do, and are wrong, it makes no difference. But if you don't believe, and God is real, then you're screwed.
RedPlums wrote:
What kind of Father would the Lord be is He made a plane wherein those who put their faith and trust in Jesus would have no assurance of whether they were truly saved or not. What kind of life would a child have who did not know if he was a part of the family? Good one day and he's in, sins the next and he's out? One day his Father loved him, the next He didn't. The child would be an emotional and psychological wreck. The fact is, if you put your faith in Jesus Christ as our Lord & Savior, you became a child of God and were born again into His heavenly family. God tells us that in John 1:12-13.
Hold on now. I never said that simply sinning was all it would take to lose one's Salvation. I've consistently described it as a voluntary and deliberate turning away. There's a big difference there. That's why we DO have that assurance. I know that once I turn to Christ, as long as I don't choose to reject Him, I am not lost. I also know that Satan does his very best every day to try to get me to do exactly that.
Otherwise, what would be the point of tempting the faithful?
RedPlums wrote:
God clearly tells that, regardless of your behavior, once you are born again, by God Himself, just like being born in an earthly family you are ALWAYS going to be a member of that family and there is nothing that you or they can do to change that! You were born into that family, nothing can change that, you can't decide to be born into your neighbor's family instead. It is the same with God's family. If you are in Jesus, you are a part of the family an you can experience all the peace and security that He wants all of His children to enjoy.
We're already part of the family, and families have members that turn away and reject the others, even if things were once good.
Sstavix wrote:RedPlums wrote:
I actually had no clue you were Mormon and not a Christian. That does help.
Um... Mormons ARE Christians. I suggest you don't get insulting.
Hopefully he just didn't realize that, or maybe meant "Mormon and not a Protestant." I don't think I can recall a time when RedPlums has been deliberately insulting.