I'm Bringing 'OSAS' back!

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Re: I'm Bringing 'OSAS' back!

Postby Sstavix » Tue Jan 12, 2016 12:44 am

For some reason, I feel inspired to inject this question into the debate as well (I've remained pretty quiet on this topic....)

RedPlums, how do you define "salvation?" What happens to people when they die and go to Heaven?

I have a feeling that one of the keys to understanding ArcticFox and the LDS approach lies in this - the definition of "heaven" and "salvation." But before I interject further, I'm curious to see what your stance is. :)

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Re: I'm Bringing 'OSAS' back!

Postby RedPlums » Tue Jan 12, 2016 1:47 am

Well that answers a lot of questions...

I actually had no clue you were Mormon and not a Christian. That does help.

Well, to answer JOJ, it sounds like a plan! Let's both try it out!

And to answer Sstavix, My definition of salvation? Meaning that you believe that Jesus Christ died for you on the cross and took all of your sins upon Himself and has wiped them away.
What happens to people when they die and go to heaven? Um, they die, and go to heaven. The Bible says that we will stand before God at the Great White Throne and if we have put our faith in Jesus Christ our names will be in the Book of Life and He will let us enter Heaven where we will worship Him. If we have not put our faith in Jesus, He will cast us into the lake of fire where we will spend an eternity separate from God, where there will be burning and gnashing of teeth.
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Re: I'm Bringing 'OSAS' back!

Postby Sstavix » Tue Jan 12, 2016 6:01 am


I actually had no clue you were Mormon and not a Christian. That does help.
Um... Mormons ARE Christians. I suggest you don't get insulting. :P
And to answer Sstavix, My definition of salvation? Meaning that you believe that Jesus Christ died for you on the cross and took all of your sins upon Himself and has wiped them away.
What happens to people when they die and go to heaven? Um, they die, and go to heaven. The Bible says that we will stand before God at the Great White Throne and if we have put our faith in Jesus Christ our names will be in the Book of Life and He will let us enter Heaven where we will worship Him. If we have not put our faith in Jesus, He will cast us into the lake of fire where we will spend an eternity separate from God, where there will be burning and gnashing of teeth.
So do you think that anyone who hasn't followed Christ - and has never had the opportunity to follow Christ - will automatically be condemned to Hell for all eternity? Does that include people who were around before Christ was born? What about those in countries nowadays where they never have the opportunity to hear about Christ because Christianity is against the law?

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Re: I'm Bringing 'OSAS' back!

Postby ArcticFox » Tue Jan 12, 2016 4:00 pm

I'm beginning to think that we're arguing just for the sake of arguing. Hmmm... :wink:
Nah, we're debating for fun!

I mean, ultimately, what one thinks about this particular question isn't going to determine the state of their eternal salvation one way or another, as long as they don't turn away and find out who is right the hard way 8)
Well, let me start this off by saying that a person needs to consider that God loves us so much that He gave His Son to buy us back from our sin. His love overshadows everything else and nothing that there is nothing we could ever do to cause this salvation to be lost. To say that we could lose salvation is to say the we are in control of our own salvation and that the ultimate sacrifice that Jesus did is of no effect.
We are in control of it though. Coming to Jesus in the first place is an act we undertake of our own free will, isn't it? The gift of Salvation is offered, but not forced upon us. Jesus paid the price for our sins on the cross, but we still individually have to accept it in order to benefit from it.

See, that's the problem with a doctrine like OSAS... it forces one into a philosophical corner where, in order to be consistent, you have to start supporting it with more and more difficult claims. That's what leads to things like Calvinism, where you literally have NO power to either accept or reject Salvation because of predestination.
A Person who willingly, humbly, repents of sin and turns towards the cross, trusting Christ as their Savior, will be saved (Acts 16:31. John 6:37, John 14:6). That salvation is once and for all, eternal and secure. Those who truly trust in Christ are saved once, and saved always.
If because of your sinful deeds or lack of good deeds you lose your eternal security then your good deeds would become part of your salvation, something that Ephesians 2:8-9 clearly disproves. This would also place a burden on oneself, and one would always have to be trying to do enough good to outweigh our sin. To deny eternal security in such a way is to support a "Faith-Plus-Works" salvation.
Simply doing evil deeds alone isn't the thing that breaks our connection with Jesus Christ. It's the willful turning away from Him that does that.
I think we must leave out the two parables that are aforesaid, we interpret those differently and thus our arguments and answers will never satisfy the other. Maybe you agree with me on this?
Yeah I mean if we see it that differently then I agree there's no point in beating a dead horse, though I was hoping to hear your thoughts on my comments in my previous post.
Two of the devil's most cunning devices is to first convince men/women who are seeking to find eternal life and salvation that they can go to heaven by doing good works and earning salvation. Second is to misrepresent salvation by persuading them they can lose their salvation. It is one of the worse false teachings that the devil has made man a party too. Satan has done so well in this that people believe that if they do not live right, or if they falter or wain in their faith, they could lose their salvation. In other words, God will cast them out and withdraw His grace and mercy. What loving God would do that?
Why would the idea that Salvation CAN be rejected be a tool of Satan? It seems to me that if I'm wrong and Salvation cannot be lost, then nothing bad happens. People who got saved and tried to turn away still get to go to Heaven. If, on the other hand, I'm right, then it would mean we need to be extra careful, and be less likely to fall away so that we can keep the gift we've been given. Which of those two would you say is more useful to someone whose goal is to keep as many people out of Heaven as possible? It's sort of like Pascal's Wager, where one might choose to believe in God because if you do, and are wrong, it makes no difference. But if you don't believe, and God is real, then you're screwed.
What kind of Father would the Lord be is He made a plane wherein those who put their faith and trust in Jesus would have no assurance of whether they were truly saved or not. What kind of life would a child have who did not know if he was a part of the family? Good one day and he's in, sins the next and he's out? One day his Father loved him, the next He didn't. The child would be an emotional and psychological wreck. The fact is, if you put your faith in Jesus Christ as our Lord & Savior, you became a child of God and were born again into His heavenly family. God tells us that in John 1:12-13.
Hold on now. I never said that simply sinning was all it would take to lose one's Salvation. I've consistently described it as a voluntary and deliberate turning away. There's a big difference there. That's why we DO have that assurance. I know that once I turn to Christ, as long as I don't choose to reject Him, I am not lost. I also know that Satan does his very best every day to try to get me to do exactly that.

Otherwise, what would be the point of tempting the faithful?
God clearly tells that, regardless of your behavior, once you are born again, by God Himself, just like being born in an earthly family you are ALWAYS going to be a member of that family and there is nothing that you or they can do to change that! You were born into that family, nothing can change that, you can't decide to be born into your neighbor's family instead. It is the same with God's family. If you are in Jesus, you are a part of the family an you can experience all the peace and security that He wants all of His children to enjoy.
We're already part of the family, and families have members that turn away and reject the others, even if things were once good.

I actually had no clue you were Mormon and not a Christian. That does help.
Um... Mormons ARE Christians. I suggest you don't get insulting. :P
Hopefully he just didn't realize that, or maybe meant "Mormon and not a Protestant." I don't think I can recall a time when RedPlums has been deliberately insulting.
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Re: I'm Bringing 'OSAS' back!

Postby Sstavix » Tue Jan 12, 2016 4:46 pm

A Person who willingly, humbly, repents of sin and turns towards the cross, trusting Christ as their Savior, will be saved (Acts 16:31. John 6:37, John 14:6). That salvation is once and for all, eternal and secure. Those who truly trust in Christ are saved once, and saved always.
If because of your sinful deeds or lack of good deeds you lose your eternal security then your good deeds would become part of your salvation, something that Ephesians 2:8-9 clearly disproves. This would also place a burden on oneself, and one would always have to be trying to do enough good to outweigh our sin. To deny eternal security in such a way is to support a "Faith-Plus-Works" salvation.
Simply doing evil deeds alone isn't the thing that breaks our connection with Jesus Christ. It's the willful turning away from Him that does that.
Not to throw another wrench into the conversation... but what about those who do evil works, but honestly believes that they are doing the work of Christ? For example, the Crusaders. Where would they stand in regards to the topic - would they be saved because they devoted themselves to Christ? Or would they be condemned because their actions didn't reflect the example that Christ made for us? Or something else entirely?


I actually had no clue you were Mormon and not a Christian. That does help.
Um... Mormons ARE Christians. I suggest you don't get insulting. :P
Hopefully he just didn't realize that, or maybe meant "Mormon and not a Protestant." I don't think I can recall a time when RedPlums has been deliberately insulting.
I'm hoping it was just a typo, too. But I have heard that argument that Mormons aren't Christian, and that argument has no base to stand on. I just wanted to nip that debate in the bud now before it got too carried away. :)

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Re: I'm Bringing 'OSAS' back!

Postby ArcticFox » Tue Jan 12, 2016 6:08 pm

Not to throw another wrench into the conversation... but what about those who do evil works, but honestly believes that they are doing the work of Christ? For example, the Crusaders. Where would they stand in regards to the topic - would they be saved because they devoted themselves to Christ? Or would they be condemned because their actions didn't reflect the example that Christ made for us? Or something else entirely?
You know you love throwing wrenches :lol:

I guess that's where the Day of Judgement comes in. Glad I don't have to make that call.

And this might be a good topic for another conversation, but I do not concede that the Crusades were evil. (At least, not all of them.) That discussion would definitely be a threadjack though.
I'm hoping it was just a typo, too. But I have heard that argument that Mormons aren't Christian, and that argument has no base to stand on. I just wanted to nip that debate in the bud now before it got too carried away. :)
Yeah I feel ya brother. There was a time when a comment like that would have incensed me beyond reason. Then one day I realized that the only one whose opinion on that matters is Jesus Christ Himself, so everybody else can say what they please. :)
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Re: I'm Bringing 'OSAS' back!

Postby RedPlums » Tue Jan 12, 2016 7:28 pm

Well, I think it depends on our definitions of Christians.

I've been raised knowing that 'Christian' is not a loose term just thrown on any person who goes to church. To me a Christian is a person who has put his/her faith in Jesus Christ, who reads the Bible consistently, who has a personal and intimate relationship with God, who spends time in prayer daily, who tries their best to obey the Lord and follow His commands as clearly told in the Bible. Plus many other things, but that's a long rabbit trail I don't want to follow.
Please understand I do not intend to insult anyone, I've just never thought of Mormons as Christians.

Do people who have never ever heard of God or Jesus still go to Hell? I'd say yes. They have no excuse not to believe in God, Romans 1:20 clearly tells us that. They should be able to look at creation and the world around them and figure out that their is a God who created them and the world.

I agree with Arctic that the Crusaders are a conversation for a different thread. But, it is my honest opinion that many of the crusaders were not actually saved. If you take a deeper look into the crusades, they were driven mostly by greed and what possessions they could get from the 'Holy Land' their behavior and actions were abominable and far from Christ-like, much like the Catholic Church's actions back in their hay-day. I seriously doubt that the majority of crusaders were saved.

Yes, family members do turn away and reject their family. But it's still their family, they don't actually leave the family, they are still the father/mother/son/daughter, they cannot change that. That's exactly what I said before.

I personally do not believe in predestination.

We are in control of accepting the gift of salvation. We are not in control of getting rid of it. If we could get rid of it then it would be of no use for Jesus to have had died.

I'm beginning to lose sight of the light at the end of this tunnel. If none of us are going to get anything out of this than there is no use continuing this argument. I will adhere to my beliefs, you will hold to yours, neither one of us is going to change.
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Re: I'm Bringing 'OSAS' back!

Postby ArcticFox » Tue Jan 12, 2016 7:33 pm

Well, I think it depends on our definitions of Christians.

I've been raised knowing that 'Christian' is not a loose term just thrown on any person who goes to church. To me a Christian is a person who has put his/her faith in Jesus Christ, who reads the Bible consistently, who has a personal and intimate relationship with God, who spends time in prayer daily, who tries their best to obey the Lord and follow His commands as clearly told in the Bible. Plus many other things, but that's a long rabbit trail I don't want to follow.
Please understand I do not intend to insult anyone, I've just never thought of Mormons as Christians.
I think the definition you gave there applies to Mormons just fine. :)
I agree with Arctic that the Crusaders are a conversation for a different thread. But, it is my honest opinion that many of the crusaders were not actually saved. If you take a deeper look into the crusades, they were driven mostly by greed and what possessions they could get from the 'Holy Land' their behavior and actions were abominable and far from Christ-like, much like the Catholic Church's actions back in their hay-day. I seriously doubt that the majority of crusaders were saved.
I think we totally need that thread now ;) (Not that I disagree that the Crusaders were a mixed bag. I think you're right about that.)
We are in control of accepting the gift of salvation. We are not in control of getting rid of it. If we could get rid of it then it would be of no use for Jesus to have had died.
I don't understand why?
I'm beginning to lose sight of the light at the end of this tunnel. If none of us are going to get anything out of this than there is no use continuing this argument. I will adhere to my beliefs, you will hold to yours, neither one of us is going to change.
I think we're getting plenty. It's always beneficial to learn about how other people see things. If nothing else, it makes it easier to communicate and gain mutual understanding. I think if one enters a debate with the expectation that the only good outcome is changing other people's minds, it will cause more harm than good. It's a lesson I had to learn the hard way.
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Re: I'm Bringing 'OSAS' back!

Postby Sstavix » Tue Jan 12, 2016 8:40 pm

Well, I think it depends on our definitions of Christians.

I've been raised knowing that 'Christian' is not a loose term just thrown on any person who goes to church. To me a Christian is a person who has put his/her faith in Jesus Christ, who reads the Bible consistently, who has a personal and intimate relationship with God, who spends time in prayer daily, who tries their best to obey the Lord and follow His commands as clearly told in the Bible. Plus many other things, but that's a long rabbit trail I don't want to follow.
Please understand I do not intend to insult anyone, I've just never thought of Mormons as Christians.
I think the definition you gave there applies to Mormons just fine. :)
I agree. :)
I agree with Arctic that the Crusaders are a conversation for a different thread. But, it is my honest opinion that many of the crusaders were not actually saved. If you take a deeper look into the crusades, they were driven mostly by greed and what possessions they could get from the 'Holy Land' their behavior and actions were abominable and far from Christ-like, much like the Catholic Church's actions back in their hay-day. I seriously doubt that the majority of crusaders were saved.
The reason why I brought it up in terms of this thread was because of the idea of "once saved, always saved." If a person swore to give his life to Christ, and then proceeded to do terrible things in the (mistaken) idea that what he was doing was bringing glory to Christ - such as slaughtering people simply because they didn't believe in Jesus - do you think that person would still be saved? It brings to my mind Revelations 3:15-16 - if a person is neither cold or hot, they will be "spit out," or rejected. In a sense, I am saying that salvation likely does come from a combination of grace and works. It won't be good enough simply to say "sure, I'm a Christian." You need to also live a Christian lifestyle - prove it through your actions - before being blessed or, ultimately, saved.
I'm beginning to lose sight of the light at the end of this tunnel. If none of us are going to get anything out of this than there is no use continuing this argument. I will adhere to my beliefs, you will hold to yours, neither one of us is going to change.
I think we're getting plenty. It's always beneficial to learn about how other people see things. If nothing else, it makes it easier to communicate and gain mutual understanding. I think if one enters a debate with the expectation that the only good outcome is changing other people's minds, it will cause more harm than good. It's a lesson I had to learn the hard way.
These kinds of discussions also help to affirm your own beliefs, as well as see how the "other side" sees things. On this forum, there's the added bonus that we're all civil here. As AF said, it's not the goal to change minds, but to get a deeper understanding of each other - and in the process, perhaps a deeper understanding of how God's plan is working.

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Re: I'm Bringing 'OSAS' back!

Postby RedPlums » Wed Jan 13, 2016 2:34 am

Sstavix you say salvation is had by grace and works, where in the Bible does it say that salvation is ever achieved by works?

You also say that if a person swears his or her life to God then goes and slaughters people how could they still be saved? How could they be saved to begin with? What true, God fearing and God loving Christian do you know who would suddenly go out and become a serial murderer and be just fine with that? That Christian would be a spiritual and mental wreck just planning such a thing. Also, swearing ones life to God is different than being saved. We are saved by putting faith in Jesus Christ, as the Bible states numerous times, not by making a vow to live for God.

Why aren't we in control of getting rid of it? Well, John 10:28 says that we are in God's hand, and no man can ever take us out. I think that pretty much sums up why we cannot lose our salvation. We don't have the power or ability to! Romans 8:38-39 gives a clear list of things that cannot separate from the love of God. We, can't do anything to lose our salvation, it would be like trying to dive to the deepest part of the sea with just goggles.

I am wondering though, what loving God, who sends His only Son to be brutally killed for every human being on earth to be saved and join Him in His house, would ever let those people decide to leave? If you love your son or daughter, truly truly love them, you wouldn't let them just up and leave the family and never come back, would you? Answer me that.

Plus, if we can lose our salvation, how do we know when we lose it? How do we know when we have it? How do we know when we need to be 're-saved'? The idea of losing our salvation would have us constantly worrying about whether we're saved or not, whether we've been 'good enough' for God. What if Christ comes back one day and takes His beloved home with Him, but there were people who weren't saved, thinking all this time they were, not knowing they had done something that had separated them from God again, what about them?

While I still disagree that Mormons are Christians, I will say that I don't have first hand experience being a Mormon so I cannot say I know everything about your religion. However, that is indeed a topic for another thread.
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Re: I'm Bringing 'OSAS' back!

Postby Sstavix » Wed Jan 13, 2016 4:25 am

Sstavix you say salvation is had by grace and works, where in the Bible does it say that salvation is ever achieved by works?
There are several places, actually. Three that come immediately to mind....

The Baptism of Jesus: Jesus makes it abundantly clear that baptism is necessary. It isn't enough simply to declare that you are a follower of Jesus - you need to show your dedication through baptism.

James 2:14-26: Faith without works is dead. If anything this entire passage is a good argument against the thought that man can be saved by faith alone.

Matthew 7:21-23: Jesus says that not everyone who does things in Jesus' name will be saved - only those that do the will if His Father in Heaven.
You also say that if a person swears his or her life to God then goes and slaughters people how could they still be saved? How could they be saved to begin with?
Actually, you've been making that argument throughout this thread.
Well, let me start this off by saying that a person needs to consider that God loves us so much that He gave His Son to buy us back from our sin. His love overshadows everything else and nothing that there is nothing we could ever do to cause this salvation to be lost. To say that we could lose salvation is to say the we are in control of our own salvation and that the ultimate sacrifice that Jesus did is of no effect.
A Person who willingly, humbly, repents of sin and turns towards the cross, trusting Christ as their Savior, will be saved (Acts 16:31. John 6:37, John 14:6). That salvation is once and for all, eternal and secure. Those who truly trust in Christ are saved once, and saved always.
Or, even in this post I'm responding to....
We, can't do anything to lose our salvation,
Their conversion and dedication to Jesus and God may indeed be heartfelt and honest. But people can change over the years, either through their own experiences, or because they've been misled through the words and/or actions of others (in the Crusades example, because the spiritual authorities said that it was God's will, and they believed it).
If you love your son or daughter, truly truly love them, you wouldn't let them just up and leave the family and never come back, would you? Answer me that.
Re-read the parable of the Prodigal Son. Since we have free will, we do have the choice to walk away from our families and never come back. Some people do exactly that (for a contemporary example, Miley Cyrus has denounced her Christian upbringing). It depends on how controlling and/or loving the parents are. Personally, if it were my children who wanted to leave, then I would let them, but I would assure them that they could come back any time they wanted to as well. Maybe not with their boy/girlfriends, though.... ;)
Plus, if we can lose our salvation, how do we know when we lose it? How do we know when we have it? How do we know when we need to be 're-saved'? The idea of losing our salvation would have us constantly worrying about whether we're saved or not, whether we've been 'good enough' for God. What if Christ comes back one day and takes His beloved home with Him, but there were people who weren't saved, thinking all this time they were, not knowing they had done something that had separated them from God again, what about them?
That's where prayer and communication with God comes in. If someone is honest and humble in their prayers and their requests for spiritual guidance, then they will receive the answers they seek. If they are truly faithful and honest, then they will never need to worry about whether they are saved or not - they will receive the reassurance from the Holy Spirit to "fear not."
While I still disagree that Mormons are Christians, I will say that I don't have first hand experience being a Mormon so I cannot say I know everything about your religion. However, that is indeed a topic for another thread.
Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints meet the requirements you posted above, so I don't know why you would still not see them as Christians. But this would be a topic for a different thread - or even better, a private topic to discuss. Feel free to send ArcticFox and/or me a PM, and we can discuss it there! :)

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Re: I'm Bringing 'OSAS' back!

Postby RedPlums » Wed Jan 13, 2016 3:48 pm

Ephesians 2:8-9 'For by grace are you saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast.'

So, salvation is achieved by works?
Baptism is not necessary for salvation, the Bible states many times that you are saved first and THEN baptized, baptism is just a public statement, telling everyone that you are born again.
'Faith without works is dead' I think this is again, a topic where we interpret it differently. A Christian, who lives his/her whole life without doing any good works, what good is it for that person to be a Christian? They aren't doing anything for the Lord. That person would not be an effective servant of God, they would be saved, yes, but their faith wouldn't do much for them, God or anyone else, because they are not doing anything for God. They are, for lack of a better term, 'dead Christians'.
Matthew 7:21-23 is in reference to those people who think they can get to heaven by some form of action or word. Whether it's by worship ('Lord, Lord') or works ('casting out demons, prophesying...') the Catholic's belief is much like this, that by attending mass and being a good person one can get to heaven.

No, my argument is that a person cannot lose their salvation, not that if a person commits their life to God they are saved.

You did not answer my previous question. Why would a loving God, who sent His only Son to be brutally murdered on a cross for all humans to be saved, who made the ultimate sacrifice, who has made a perfect realm for us, who forgives us time and time again, who gladly welcomes us into his family, ever let us leave?
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Re: I'm Bringing 'OSAS' back!

Postby Sstavix » Wed Jan 13, 2016 4:29 pm

Ephesians 2:8-9 'For by grace are you saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast.'
This is where I disagree with your interpretation. ;) It is true that people cannot earn their way into Heaven. It's only through God's grace that we are permitted entry. But even God's grace isn't sufficient - we have to do our part as well, by accepting this grace, this gift, and trying to live a Christian lifestyle, rather than simply taking it for granted.

Baptism is not necessary for salvation, the Bible states many times that you are saved first and THEN baptized, baptism is just a public statement, telling everyone that you are born again.
So you disagree with Jesus? He said Himself that it was necessary "to fulfill all righteousness." Do you think He was wrong?
'Faith without works is dead' I think this is again, a topic where we interpret it differently. A Christian, who lives his/her whole life without doing any good works, what good is it for that person to be a Christian? They aren't doing anything for the Lord. That person would not be an effective servant of God, they would be saved, yes, but their faith wouldn't do much for them, God or anyone else, because they are not doing anything for God. They are, for lack of a better term, 'dead Christians'.
So you believe that people need to act in a Christian, Godly manner in order to receive salvation?
Matthew 7:21-23 is in reference to those people who think they can get to heaven by some form of action or word. Whether it's by worship ('Lord, Lord') or works ('casting out demons, prophesying...') the Catholic's belief is much like this, that by attending mass and being a good person one can get to heaven.
Are you saying that Catholics are not Christian?
You did not answer my previous question. Why would a loving God, who sent His only Son to be brutally murdered on a cross for all humans to be saved, who made the ultimate sacrifice, who has made a perfect realm for us, who forgives us time and time again, who gladly welcomes us into his family, ever let us leave?
Simple - because He loves us so much that He gave us the wondrous gift of free will. We are free to turn away and try to find our own path, if we choose. And as a kind and loving Father, God will let us do this. Likewise, if we feel the need to return, He will welcome us with open arms, just like the father in the story of the Prodigal Son. But it has to be our decision to do so. If God forced us into it, then was it really free will to begin with? If God is controlling our every action, why bother with temptation or salvation in the first place? What does that say about the nature of God?

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Re: I'm Bringing 'OSAS' back!

Postby ArcticFox » Wed Jan 13, 2016 5:48 pm

Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints meet the requirements you posted above, so I don't know why you would still not see them as Christians. But this would be a topic for a different thread - or even better, a private topic to discuss. Feel free to send ArcticFox and/or me a PM, and we can discuss it there! :)
I'd be up for that thread. The only thing I'd want to avoid is the tendency people sometimes have to move the goalposts. By that I mean they offer a definition of what a Christian is, and if the LDS Church meets that definition, they adjust it to try and exclude Mormons from fitting it. (Not accusing you of that, Red. Just saying it's something I've seen before and would want to avoid.)

Back on topic...

It honestly baffles me why people will argue so strenuously that "Once Saved, Always Saved" is a thing, or that Baptism isn't necessary. Even if those things were true, they shouldn't apply to a faithful and obedient follower of Christ anyway. We're commanded to be Baptized, and we aren't supposed to turn away once we've accepted Christ. Simple. Filling one's head with the idea that they don't HAVE to get Baptized or that they CAN turn away from Christ and still be saved is dangerous and can put someone's eternal soul in peril if they're wrong. What would be gained by agreeing that OSAS is correct, or that Baptism is unnecessary? What makes the risk worthwhile?
"He who takes offense when no offense is intended is a fool, and he who takes offense when offense is intended is a greater fool."
—Brigham Young

"Don't take refuge in the false security of consensus."
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Sstavix
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Re: I'm Bringing 'OSAS' back!

Postby Sstavix » Wed Jan 13, 2016 8:17 pm


It honestly baffles me why people will argue so strenuously that "Once Saved, Always Saved" is a thing, or that Baptism isn't necessary. Even if those things were true, they shouldn't apply to a faithful and obedient follower of Christ anyway. We're commanded to be Baptized, and we aren't supposed to turn away once we've accepted Christ. Simple. Filling one's head with the idea that they don't HAVE to get Baptized or that they CAN turn away from Christ and still be saved is dangerous and can put someone's eternal soul in peril if they're wrong. What would be gained by agreeing that OSAS is correct, or that Baptism is unnecessary? What makes the risk worthwhile?
Are you saying that baptism is not necessary for salvation?

See, there are some things that even Mormons don't agree on amongst themselves. ;)

Of course, that could tie in with the LDS idea of heaven too, now that I think about it. I mentioned it earlier, but I never got back to that point.... But to avoid a derail of the thread, I'll hold off on that for a little longer.


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