Which bathroom should a transgender person use?

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Which bathroom should a transgender person use?

Postby amyjo88 » Fri Sep 04, 2015 12:48 pm

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/02/us/te ... hroom.html

Points to consider and discuss:

Don't let intersex persons become collateral damage
Intersex is someone who's body is not male or female. There are many varieties, having more or fewer parts (external or internal) and/or having chromosomes that are not XY or XX.

There is no regulation we can make that will not affect at least some intersex persons. http://intersexroadshow.blogspot.com/20 ... teral.html

How common is this? A sex specialist is called in to determine the sex of 1 in 1500-2000 babies born. Not to mention those who seem to clearly be a male or female at birth and are actually intersex.
http://www.isna.org/faq/frequency

What about people that just look like the other sex naturally? I'm not sure whether they are called intersex or not.

How are we going to enforce gender regulations on a day to day basis anyway?
ID cards? Who gets to decide what goes on the ID? You can already get your sex changed on your driver's license and birth certificate in some states. Can't tell just by looking at a person. A physical exam is not only super awkward but takes an impractical amount of time as well.

Should we rethink our bathrooms?
There are countries that have co-ed bathrooms. We have gender segregated bathrooms because of our culture and our wealth. Why shouldn't we switch to co-ed bathrooms? What other solutions do we have? What about locker rooms and changing rooms? How do we make the transition? Take the men and women signs down? Would you expect your church's bathroom to remain gender segregated? Why?

When do we actually need to know what sex or gender a person is?
Some workplaces probably, which ones? I would probably want to know before I dated someone… As a pastor it may have to come up during premarital counseling…

Is there any time we need to know that we don't have time to determine so by whatever criteria is relevant?

What if the government redefines gender? Does it have any business defining gender anyway?
From the start, our country is about freedom. Many of the founding fathers were Christians and that influenced them but their goalwas freedom. Unfortunately, laws will probably be passed regarding transgender persons. I do not say unfortunately because they do not deserve protection, but because more laws typically makes things worse. Is there any reason the government needs to know what sex or gender we are? Make us all register for the draft. At that point, it is probably prudent to determine sex/gender. But does that information need to be attached to us outside of that arena? Does it need to be on our birth certificate? Does it need to be on our driver's license? Why?

How should the church respond to non-Christian persons?
We need to respond to ALL non-Christians differently that we should respond to Christians. Let's think about our goal and our responsibility. Our goal is to bring people into God's Kingdom. Our responsibility is to love and care for people, the Holy Spirits job is to convict, Jesus' job is to judge, and God claims all rights to vengeance. We are only given permission to judge and correct other Christians.

So lets call people what they want to be called. Take them at their word when they tell you their gender. Whatever we decide the criteria for gender divisions is, we can't tell just by meeting them. If somehow we do find out that they do not meet our criteria of the gender they have claimed, what good does it do insisting on referring to them as the gender we think is right? Learn their story. Once they become Christians, respond gently and give the Holy Spirit time to work. Transformation takes time. There may come a time when we have to confront, but that needs to be on an individual basis and consistent with the way we confront other sins. (See ccgr's recent post on 7 sins the church ignores).

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Re: Which bathroom should a transgender person use?

Postby ccgr » Fri Sep 04, 2015 1:05 pm

Many places have family bathrooms that could be used for that purpose I suppose

Despite the waiting lines for females and not enough stalls for men at busy events, the separate bathroom system has worked well for a long time

Now granted being a female I do my business behind closed doors but I can imagine guys feeling a little awkward if women or men dressed as women were able to watch them pee.

Men, what say you? Stalls for everyone and make all bathrooms equal or leave good enough alone?

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Re: Which bathroom should a transgender person use?

Postby ArcticFox » Fri Sep 04, 2015 1:27 pm

I don't know what the solution is, but I do know that normal people will not get a say.

I hope very soon we will wake up from this and realize how far off the rails we've gone as a culture.
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Re: Which bathroom should a transgender person use?

Postby ccgr » Fri Sep 04, 2015 2:24 pm

Was he really gender confused or just entitled to a good peep show??

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Re: Which bathroom should a transgender person use?

Postby ArcticFox » Fri Sep 04, 2015 2:27 pm

Was he really gender confused or just entitled to a good peep show??
The simple fact that there is no established mechanism for determining that is exactly the problem. We're simply meant to take a teenage boy's word for it. What could possibly go wrong?
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Re: Which bathroom should a transgender person use?

Postby storm » Fri Sep 04, 2015 3:20 pm

Why do I get the feeling more and more lately, that we need a adult only forum posting area. One requiring proof your are a adult to read. Too many topics I see lately I feel are not what we should post for young members. I mean if my saying we make homemade wine and I have no more than one drink if any in a day is unfit where is the line drawn ? I can at least show Bible scripture that what I do is good and healthy. I just wander how far can we go in forums as a Christian family site
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Re: Which bathroom should a transgender person use?

Postby ccgr » Fri Sep 04, 2015 3:27 pm

moved to debates

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Re: Which bathroom should a transgender person use?

Postby amyjo88 » Fri Sep 04, 2015 8:21 pm

Yeah that's true storm. Hmmm. I'd support an adults only section. I'd also be ok if this topic was taken down for the sake of kids, as well as other topics. Note, the very first link in my post is about the same incident as arcticfox's link, the boy began identifying as female at age 13. I do believe we have some 9 year old's and possibly younger though...

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Re: Which bathroom should a transgender person use?

Postby ArcticFox » Fri Sep 04, 2015 8:24 pm

As much as it pains me to say it, kids are living in the same world we are, and should be prepared. I don't think hiding topics like this from them is going to help much.
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Re: Which bathroom should a transgender person use?

Postby Bruce_Campbell » Sat Sep 05, 2015 5:29 pm

As a nonbeliever, I probably have a differing opinion on this issue than most people here. But I'd like to commend the OP on her thoughtful post. A lot of the nuance of this issue gets lost on the Matt Walsh's of the world, and if more people took time to think about the complexities of this issue I think the world would be a nicer place for transgender folks (and everyone else). It was refreshing for me to read a post that I found thoughtful and compassionate despite disagreeing with parts of it.

I don't know how I feel about the high school locker room issue. It doesn't make sense to me that this kid would come out as transgender, which puts a major target on her back, just to get into a locker room. If she wanted to look at naked girls, there are a million easier ways to do it that wouldn't make her a target. But I can also understand the other girls' discomfort. So this is a tricky issue, and I don't think it's as black-and-white as Matt Walsh makes it out to be. (If I haven't made it clear by now, I really hate that guy.)

As for public restrooms... what are we going to do, put a TSA booth at the doors? The argument against trans folks choosing their own bathroom seems to imply that people shouldn't use a public bathroom as the gender they are attracted to, and by that logic we should ban gay people from using restrooms of the same sex. It just doesn't make sense to me how this helps predators somehow. If any person, male or female, was peeping at me under a bathroom stall or staring at me doing my business at a urinal, I'd call the police. And when I'm doing my businessl, the last thing I want to do is look around at other people doing their business. Parents bring their opposite sex children into public bathrooms all the time; and nobody in their right mind complains about it. I guess what I'm saying is that I don't see how allowing trans people (who generally present as the gender they identify as) choose to use the bathroom they feel comfortable with is going to help sexual predators.
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Re: Which bathroom should a transgender person use?

Postby ArcticFox » Sat Sep 05, 2015 5:58 pm

The argument against trans folks choosing their own bathroom seems to imply that people shouldn't use a public bathroom as the gender they are attracted to, and by that logic we should ban gay people from using restrooms of the same sex.
The issue in this case is much narrower than all that. The problem here is that the comfort of the girls who were already using that locker room is being completely dismissed in favor of catering to the wants of a single student. Additionally, there seems to be no standard for determining the difference between a student with a genuine issue and kids who are just claiming transgenderism because it's become fashionable. Yes, it does happen. Let me tell you some of the stories I've heard from my 16 year old daughter who goes to high school in a relatively conservative part of the country in rural PA. Even there she's often teased for not claiming to be "pansexual" or "bisexual" or whatever else sounds good at the moment. She has an acquaintance who "chooses her sex" every morning before coming to school and gets irate when people don't play along and refer to her as 'he' on the days she decides she's a boy.

Is it possible that the kid in the article has a genuine transgender issue? Maybe, but I've seen no evidence to that effect. Even if he does, for the school to completely capitulate to his demands smacks of butt-covering on the part of the school administration, rather than an actual example of modern progressivism. Reasonable compromises were offered and rejected. This kid wants what he wants PERIOD, and the needs of those around him are being treated as irrelevant... Actually no, not even irrelevant. Looking at the way some people are reacting to these girls, who have legitimate concerns, is actually vilifying the victims here.

I have no problem with making reasonable accommodations for reasonable people, but this isn't even remotely reasonable. This is tyranny by the minority.
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Re: Which bathroom should a transgender person use?

Postby oregorn1997 » Sun Sep 06, 2015 5:31 pm

As much as it pains me to say it, kids are living in the same world we are, and should be prepared. I don't think hiding topics like this from them is going to help much.
As for public restrooms... what are we going to do, put a TSA booth at the doors? The argument against trans folks choosing their own bathroom seems to imply that people shouldn't use a public bathroom as the gender they are attracted to, and by that logic we should ban gay people from using restrooms of the same sex. It just doesn't make sense to me how this helps predators somehow. If any person, male or female, was peeping at me under a bathroom stall or staring at me doing my business at a urinal, I'd call the police. And when I'm doing my businessl, the last thing I want to do is look around at other people doing their business. Parents bring their opposite sex children into public bathrooms all the time; and nobody in their right mind complains about it. I guess what I'm saying is that I don't see how allowing trans people (who generally present as the gender they identify as) choose to use the bathroom they feel comfortable with is going to help sexual predators.
These two quotes I agree with completely^^

The bible clearly speaks of rape(gay and straight), murder, adultery, and many MANY other subjects that some people would consider age sensitive material. It is my opinion that there is no subject in the bible that any child should not be fully aware of. That's where the guidance of parents come in.

When it comes to restroom? If I am ever in a public restroom, I am either A, at a urinal, which has never taken more than 30 seconds; or B, in a stall, where I don't care who the heck you are, if you stick your head under the wall, YOU WILL GET KICKED.
I'll be honest, and say that I haven't ever been in a locker room more than maybe 5 times in my life. Oh, the joys of being homeschooled :P

Here is a thought though. Everyone has heard of rape whistles, so why not have an emergency alarm in public restrooms? One that calls security, or at least blares a siren. I feel like that could work very well in the case that bathrooms become "un-biased".
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Re: Which bathroom should a transgender person use?

Postby amyjo88 » Sun Sep 06, 2015 9:14 pm

I don't think an alarm would do it, because it would have to be noticeable enough for the victim that the perp would also notice it an often be able to prevent the victim from using it.

I'd say, smaller businesses would need to have an individual bathroom or two, and larger ones would typically have enough traffic to be safe. Medium sized, a combination? Vulnerable persons could use an individual locked room, and a communal room could also be available for busy times and groups and non-vulnerables (such as my 6'4 husky hubby)

Or, cameras. Put up dividers on the urinals for guys who don't want to give it up, and point the camera from the back wall to the door.

Or stop making fun of girls going in groups ;)

Anyone here been in a co-ed bathroom? My parents have, in Paris I think. Let's see how other countries do it.

I like the point about why we segregate bathrooms. Segregating by sexual attraction is even more impossible than the impossible feat than separating my gender.

Christians, is this a large scale issue yet? No. But let's think about it now so we can be prepared when it is. Let's not make fools of ourselves yet again, ok? Instead of shouting from the rooftops for more regulation on our bathrooms and posting angry signs in our churches, let's lead the way in co-ed bathrooms. Maybe even now.

Unless someone has a better idea?

And I love the comment about kicking whoever peeps under the stall, no matter gender or sexual orientation. Truth.

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Re: Which bathroom should a transgender person use?

Postby DallenMalna » Thu Jun 09, 2016 2:37 pm

"Even fools are thought wise if they keep silent, and discerning if they hold their tongues."Proverbs 17:28
I'm about to talk about things I am NOT a specialist on and likely ignore the wisdom in this verse. But I'm really interested in the conversation and would like the chance to be a part of it soooooo.

As far as I can tell the REAL issue is being somewhat obfuscated. We have unisex bathrooms for one nearly everywhere. For those that truly care to transition (not just a bearded man in a dress) if they looked close enough to the other sex people weren't throwing them out anyway before all this. It was a non issue. So why all the hubub now? Because it is an intentional attack on Christians and the political right. I know that sounds a tad conspiratorial but I don't see how this could be seen as anything but that given the school funding getting involved. Why take a non issue like this and blow it up to a nationwide divide? So it can be used to attack states that still legally support christian morals.This is about the federal government drawing a line in the sand saying IT dictates morality. And if you dare to think that as a state you should be allowed to vote and decide for yourself. We will blackmail you and try and cripple you anyway we can. It's nothing more than a power-grab under the guise of moral superiority. It wasn't an issue and I promise the politicians supporting this don't care a fig about transgender people. I mean many of these are the same people who openly denounced gay marriage less than 10 years ago.

A final note. There are an estimated 700,000 transgender people of any sort AT MOST in the US. There are 805,781 REGISTERED SEX OFFENDERS documented in the US. Even assuming all self proclaimed transgendered people are beacons of virtue who truly are simply trapped in the wrong body and we ignore the fact that transgenderism is heavily linked and associated with an assortment of mental illnesses (and is arguably a mental illness in and of itself). Even assuming all that. We're still left with a situation where we just gave free pass to more registered sex offenders vs. making transgenders feel better.

Transgender people are people. They deserve respect. As a Christian I consider transgenderism a sin and in my unprofessional opinion it displays all the tell tale signs of a mental illness. However that does NOT mean we should demonize people. As a christian we should treat it like any other sexual sin. With grace and an attempt to show individuals there are better, healthier, godlier ways to fill the needs we all have. However, we should not approve of sin, and doubly so we should not consent to it being shoved down our throats unwilling. It's good that many have taken a stand against this attack. But I'm even happier to see a lack of true mass attacks on transgender individuals. I know there are instances but, on the whole this seems to be handled in a godly way (at least where I live in Lebanon TN). A stern objection to the attack, but grace and love for the individuals.


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