The Worst Munchkin

[fathom123]

You are a cruel and just GM, indeed...

Not really. Often times I provide ways out and am quite merciful really. This was bout the 4th session into the game, however. Most of the players were super cool and though they min/maxed they kept things balanced. And then enters the munchkin. That's when I get frustrated. When one person kills the fun for others. Then I Munchkin my encounters. You know what you can do with four monster manuals at your disposal along with the source books that apply to players used against them?

Give the goblins a few feats and then see what happens. Precise shot alone removes the -4 to hit penalty for firing into melee combat.

Then there's the obscure rules found in so many rule books. I have all of them at my disposal, not to mentions I can just simply say, "you missed."

[Oblivions_Key]

Is it just me or do these games seem horribly poorly balanced? In all fairness I've never played one, but reading this it seems like its a bit broken. It does seem really neat with all the figures and such so please, correct me

[fathom123]

Is it just me or do these games seem horribly poorly balanced? In all fairness I've never played one, but reading this it seems like its a bit broken. It does seem really neat with all the figures and such so please, correct me

It all depends on who you play with really. If you have a solid GM and mature players you can make awesome characters that do great stuff without ruining the game itself. It's when someone will use the rules to gain an advantage that begins to suck all of the attention toward them instead of enjoying the game for what it is.

[Oblivions_Key]

Ah ok, but with rules that are easily exploited, perhaps a modified custom ruleset barring broken characters, abilities, movesets etc would be useful to spread around the competitive scene. I dont know, I guess if you play with good mature players you're set anyway. Seems like the company(s) that produce the rulebooks would take notice and modify there rules to add balance. All this coming from someone interested in this sort of thing, but not having actual experience so what do I know lol

[fathom123]

Ah ok, but with rules that are easily exploited, perhaps a modified custom ruleset barring broken characters, abilities, movesets etc would be useful to spread around the competitive scene. I dont know, I guess if you play with good mature players you're set anyway. Seems like the company(s) that produce the rulebooks would take notice and modify there rules to add balance. All this coming from someone interested in this sort of thing, but not having actual experience so what do I know lol

All RPGs can be exploited regardless of how balanced they are. People find a way, trust me lol. With 3.5 when I DM, I usually have a hand in the character creation process. Monitoring to make sure people aren't going to ruin the fun for others. Even if their stats are naturally rolled that way, I will adjust them if necessary.

I've had some people show up with strength of 25 (mind you 18 is high) and I look at them like, "REALLY?!"

It's in those times you have to have a hard hand and make them adjust. It's not just about the individual's interpretation of how a game will be fun, it's the group's as well.

[Jedanova]

I get where you're coming from as a DM. I GMed a game of D20 Star Wars, which, mind you, is simply a broken system, that got out of hand QUICKLY. I digress.

Even if their stats are naturally rolled that way, I will adjust them if necessary.

I've had some people show up with strength of 25 (mind you 18 is high) and I look at them like, "REALLY?!"

It's in those times you have to have a hard hand and make them adjust. It's not just about the individual's interpretation of how a game will be fun, it's the group's as well.

I wonder about your choices on making players reroll stats however. A high stat line is really nice, especially when it boils down to STR for melee characters. I play a cleric most of the time and I enjoy having a strong sword man in front of me, especially if I'm focusing on being a support roll and have negligible to okay damage. Also, using the right type of optimization and dumping the correct stats it's not all that hard to hit a 25 in most stats. On top of that, say a character does have a 25 in STR and hits like a MAC truck, why not add DR against slashing/bludgeoning or whatever that particular character uses? I can see adjusting the stats some, or limiting feats, but nerfing a character because he rolled well and picked an optimal class/race combination seems... iffy? The only times I've had this be a problem is when the other players don't take the time to research and get creative by themselves. So you have a town-guardsmen running around with Beefy McBeefstick. Of course McBeefstick is going to destroy all the things. My rational on it is that McBeefstick trained more, i.e. his player spent the time and did the research and found things that worked together.

Anyhow, I'm currently playing with a druid who's player rolls HIGH. His dice LOVE him. On top of that, he has a lot of time to read the books, pdfs, at work and is able to find the obscure to help his character. I thoroughly enjoy his character as it's built. However, he talked the DM into giving him a divine scythe with an 18-20 x4 crit which increases in damage as he levels. I have no idea WHY my DM let him have it.

To end, I like the idea of keeping the players in check. It's easier to say, "Roll something that isn't BROKE" than to try and balance the game around the munchkin while keeping it fun for a cookie cutter fighter. Then again, toning the game down to accommodate players who won't take the time cuts the fun for everyone.

My 2 cents.

[fathom123]

I see where you are coming from. I used to run a meetup/ministry for gamers in Atlanta. The problem would be when you get people of different experience levels who understand the concept of roleplaying but are still new and getting used to the system. When that happens and you have a munchkin in the group, they typically overshadow the newbie and steal the joy from the game because they don't have the experience to use the rules on the same level as the munchkin does. Now if I was DMing a game and everyone had munchkins and min/maxed characters, then rock and roll, lets see how many of my encounters they can get through.

I have a buddy who can GM with the best of them. He allows us to roll whatever crazy combinations of characters we can and he knows and understands the rules so thoroughly that he has no problem rolling with it. That's a fun game. Now if someone new joined us, it would be so much harder for them because we would be hitting on a godly level and they would be the odd man out, making only a base character.

[Jedanova]

I see. Sorry if that seemed flamey... I didn't mean it to.

I'm currently seeing a munchkin at work. The druid with the divine scythe and armor. He duped the DM into giving it to him and is knocking down what should be giant redwoods like a berserker does a lonely kobold. As in a CR 9 demon one shot at level 6.

Now, the DM talked to a bunch of us and has decided to cut the connection with the druid's god for being buddy buddy with a dragon. Turning his divine equipment into dust but leaving his casting intact.

Any other ideas for that?

[fathom123]

Yea, that seems fair. Considering that a CR9 is a challenge for 4 9th level characters to take on. I would say if he could one shot a CR4 on his own that would be impressive but a CR9?! That's ridiculous!

[ArcticFox]

I have a quickie from last Friday night's game session. (2nd Edition)

Me: Ok, the iron golem swings at you and... (rolling an 11) hits for... (rollrollrollroll) 24 points of damage.
Player: It hit?!?!?!
Me: Yep. 24 points of damage.
Player: With my -1 AC???
Me: Yep.
Player: Wow. (And you know the "wow" I mean. It's the one that says "I think you're fudging something but I won't say anything because I know you hate to be argued with.")

For the record, the monster's THAC0 was a 5. That means that to hit a target with an AC of -1 it would need a 6 on a d20. It would be a bigger surprise if it missed.

[fathom123]

Yea, you don't tango with Iron Golems. For every edition, their bad news for any party member. You're saying that this guy was a munchkin and you dealt out the DM justice with the Iron Golem?

[ArcticFox]

Yea, you don't tango with Iron Golems. For every edition, their bad news for any party member. You're saying that this guy was a munchkin and you dealt out the DM justice with the Iron Golem?

That's exactly what I'm sayin'

[fathom123]

Good man.

[Crescentia]

As a player, it can be frustrating to have munchkins, or near-munchkins around... They get to do everything first, get more attacks, and end up getting all the kills... BUT if the DM is encouraging this as a way to learn the system better so we can all do bigger and better things, then ask for help next time you level. Our DM is great, and tries to make sure everyone is included, but there were a couple players taking crazy prestige classes that I felt were just overpowered compared to my pure rogue. The DM allows pretty much anything because he likes to throw bigger stuff at us, so I paid attention. One of the guys was a Sword Sage. Something cool you can take as a Sword Sage is a thing that lets you be always flanking as long as someone else is also fighting the enemy, even if you are on the same side. You can get this at level 1. So, I had my character learn from his and the next level took one level of Sword Sage with the rest of my Rogue levels. Now I always get my Sneak Attack, so I can actually do something to this big stuff he throws at us! That's optimizing. Now if I wanted to truly MUNCHKIN, I hear there is a thing that some class has that pretty much teleports you back and forth during combat so you are counted as flanking with yourself. THAT would eliminate the need for others in the party. You need to leave yourself room to need others.

[fathom123]

As a DM I think it's important that there is a RP aspect to WHY your character is what he is. For example, if the Sword Sage is tied to some specific faction and you just take it for the perks but your character would never be aligned with the faction tied to the class, then you shouldn't be able to take the class. Optimizing, min/maxing is great but often times can gut the purpose of D&D and other similar RP games. Granted, if you and your group are having fun, then it doesn't matter. It just drives me crazy when people play D&D to win when winning isn't really the point since it's an open ended game that technically doesn't have an end. I think winning in D&D is playing your character as the character. Seeing from their perspective instead of your own (which the other way around is technically metagaming).

Granted, this is my opinion and it has to be. The terms are redefined from group to group and person to person. I just find it difficult to to be ok with a Roleplaying game absent of roleplaying and just focused on stats and perks instead of story. Now if you can make the story fit, then awesome. But story before stats.