I Am An Addict (Mature Subject Matter)

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I Am An Addict (Mature Subject Matter)

Postby selderane » Tue Jun 07, 2016 7:54 am

It happened when I was young. I was in middle school, I think. My memories of my youth are faded and patchy at best but what I can recall tells me I was somewhere around middle school age. We moved in with my mother's good friend and he became our step-father, if not in the legal sense but for all practical purposes.

I don't recall how it happened, but its effects still plague me to this day and only grew worse and more pernicious with time. My addiction grew in lockstep with the internet.

I am, of course, talking about pornography. That thing that was once kept to your father's or grandfather's dusty shoe box shoved in the attic somewhere has mainstream acceptance. You watch porn? Who doesn't? What's the big deal, amirite?

My introduction to it was my step-father's modest collection of VHS tapes and old Playboy magazines. Pedestrian by today's standards but effective nonetheless. It colored my attractions ever since. Ask me what I find sexually appealing (don't actually ask me... weirdo) and I can point to the movie and Playboy issue that planted the seeds. One movie, one issue. That simple.

Even after he died a few years later (suicide after it came out he'd been sexually abusing my sisters - and me albeit in a different way I wouldn't understand until adulthood) I kept those things and consumed them regularly. But I felt in my heart something was wrong. It wasn't right. And I eventually bagged it all up for trash collection.

Then retrieved them before the last moment.

This consumption, shame, purging, and retrieval cycle is a pattern I am intimately familiar with. I'm somewhere between the purging and retrieval stages right now. But how do you truly purge something that is literally at your fingertips any time of the day? Drug addicts, alcoholics, they have to make an effort to get high or drunk. Or at least make a purchase. Obtaining pornography is as effortless as flipping a light switch.

What pornography does is both rewire how your brain responds to sexual stimuli as well as warp your sense/expectation of what healthy sexuality looks like. And from a Christian perspective it turn the act of sex, which should be loving and giving, and turn it into selfish gratification.

Like all good things created by Yahweh and twisted inward by darkness, sex become less about your partner's pleasure and more about using your partner to masturbate. But the thing is, women don't act like the actresses in pornography. It's unnatural and, in many cases, demeaning.

"It's fantasy!" they say. Your brain doesn't know that. And I have been training my brain to respond to sexual acts no real woman (short of strong financial incentive) would ever perform with an appetite that is ludicrous to expect. Now, I know there are women out there with strong sexual impulses but that is not the norm. The simple biological reality is that men are far more sexually aggressive, the initiator of most sexual acts, and are wired to simply think about sex more often.

I say this because what will eventually happen when you do find a woman is this: Once the endorphin high wears off (and if you're having pre-marital sex) you will return to pornography. The reasons why you do will probably be different than my own, but it will happen, and it will slowly begin to destroy your relationship. It will plant the seed in your mind that you are unsatisfied with the woman you have at your side and, eventually, you'll act on that. It may take years but it will happen.

I cheated on my wife twice in the past month or so. We've been together 18 years and it came to pass. You may think you won't cross that line but I think we know it's a lie. You can't stop watching porn, can you? What do you think that is doing? Is that bringing your closer to your wife or further? If it's the latter what else could happen?

I'd been struggling with my addiction for over two decades and just about a year ago I told my wife about my problem. I told her that I'd consume porn several times a day, I'd consume porn at work, I'd wait until she fell asleep and sneak to my PC and take care of things there.

Even after sex I was ready for porn.

I told her that with this addiction came the desire to be unfaithful. That the temptation to do so was high. She said she understood and was supportive. I don't know if she truly grasped what I was telling her. The reality of it. That I was telling her, "Listen, if this keeps up I will cheat on you. If the opportunity arises I will sleep with another woman."

I've been travelling for work and there's a girl I was very fond of. She was funny, smart, very easy to like. And very attractive. Out of my league. But the thing was, and I didn't really understand this until later, was that she had her own issues and would deal with them with copious amounts of alcohol. Well, there was a lull in the work and we took a short day trip to a national park. I got a room for us with two beds that we'd share for the night. We went out drinking, came back to the hotel, and stuff happened.

The thing was I wanted it to happen. I was excited to be alone with her and I hoped something like it would happen. Got my wish and I've been miserable since. She and I talked later and she made it clear that what had happened was because of the drinking and it meant nothing. I was crushed.

Later the project moved to Canada and I discovered that escort services were essentially legal. Miserable about what had happened with my co-worker, desperately wishing it would change, and missing home and wanting just to be in my wife's arms and make the pain go away, I called an escort up. I was a nervous wreck. I'd never done something like this before. How does the whole deal even work?

She was a sweet woman, honestly. After we finished we simply talked. About crappy fathers mostly. She noted, however, that she could tell what I wanted wasn't sex but affection. And that was true. It was simply about the desire to be desired by someone.

But I already am, aren't I? I'm married. But that wasn't enough. After the escort left I was struck by how completely hollow the experience was. I couldn't understand how anyone would regularly pay for sex. What was the point? Then I recalled an article I'd read about prostitution and in it the writer noted that the women he spoke to said that most men they slept with were simply lonely.

I'm married and I felt utterly and completely alone. And my experience with my co-worker only hurt because I cared about her beforehand.

This is what pornography does. This is what pornography is. It's self-medication. It creates the disease and presents itself as the treatment. You become so focused inward on a fantasy that you will eventually destroy any healthy relationship you have with your spouse. And if you don't have one yet it is the poisonous seed you will plant with one.

Unfortunately the Church has done little to address this issue and has ensnared millions of men and, yes, women. If you're a woman and reading this don't think I don't know you exist. I'm just a man relating my own thoughts. But, yes, plenty of women are addicted to pornography as well. Awareness is growing but it is slow.

If you're addicted to pornography GET HELP. Get it now. You can find Sexaholics Anonymous and Sex Addicts Anonymous groups in your area. They're 12-step programs based off the Alcoholics Anonymous model. If, however, you're like me and want a more Messiah-focused treatment program there's Celebrate Recovery. It's structured like AA but it draws from Scripture every step of the way.

Even if you don't use these resources, talk to someone. If you're married or dating your partner should be high on that list. Talk to your pastor. Talk to a friend. Talk to someone because you need help and you need someone to be there with you.

At the end of the day you have to make a choice. We all do. We have to choose life or choose death. Indulging your addiction is choosing death. Being an addict isn't a death sentence, but indulging it is. And when those voices come, those desires scream for your attention and tell you how miserable you are, choose life. Choose love. Choose the man or woman you love and repeat it over and over in your mind until it's real to you.

Cry, scream, fail (and you will fail... addicts relapse and you're an addict) but choose life because our time here is short and we're all meant for something greater.

Get help.

Choose to live.
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Re: I Am An Addict (Mature Subject Matter)

Postby ccgr » Tue Jun 07, 2016 12:46 pm

Wow. Thanks for sharing your story. Does your wife know about the affairs? If so, how did she react? I'm assuming your doing a recovery program? How's that going? Praying for your and your family.

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Re: I Am An Addict (Mature Subject Matter)

Postby lokik21 » Tue Jun 07, 2016 2:21 pm

Praying for you and your wife and your sisters. But yeah I'm dealing with the addiction as well and not looking at it anymore, I don't want it to become like how it did with you (no offense meant of course) but this is something that you're right, it needs to be talked about. I think people are slowly starting to realize it, if I remember correctly one of the Old Spice guys came out and said something similar recently.

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Re: I Am An Addict (Mature Subject Matter)

Postby selderane » Tue Jun 07, 2016 5:48 pm

Wow. Thanks for sharing your story. Does your wife know about the affairs? If so, how did she react? I'm assuming your doing a recovery program? How's that going? Praying for your and your family.
No, I have not told her and I have no intention of telling her. It would only hurt her and that wouldn't help anything. Indeed one of the steps of recovery is to make amends except when doing so would hurt the person you wronged. And how would I make amends anyway? By simply doing what I know I need to do. So I'll do that a spare her the pain of my infidelity.

Going to a recovery program is tricky because of how much I travel for work. If that situation changes I will. I was able to attend one Celebrate Recovery meeting in California and it wasn't as organized as I would have liked. Men and women had separate groups, which is very good (I've heard from a friend that SA and SAA groups aren't segregated and hooking up was easy), but I was lumped together with drug addicts (there were likely alcoholics there too but they didn't speak up) and that didn't feel right. It may have simply been the location. You can't color all groups because of the actions of one.
Praying for you and your wife and your sisters. But yeah I'm dealing with the addiction as well and not looking at it anymore, I don't want it to become like how it did with you (no offense meant of course) but this is something that you're right, it needs to be talked about. I think people are slowly starting to realize it, if I remember correctly one of the Old Spice guys came out and said something similar recently.
No offense taken. I posted what I did so people wouldn't do what I have done. And I hope you can refrain from consuming pornography on your own. I could make it a few months sometimes then I would relapse. If you can cold turkey it great. If not understand that there are resources out there to help.

And, yeah, Terry Crews came out that he was addicted to pornography as well and had to enter into a recovery facility.
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Re: I Am An Addict (Mature Subject Matter)

Postby ArcticFox » Tue Jun 07, 2016 6:47 pm

First, Respect ++ for having the guts to share that story. Thanks very much for doing so. I think it'll help a lot of people who are having similar struggles.

Second, everything you said about porn is true. It's insidious because it's an addiction that not only caters to a natural human desire, it is also mindlessly easy to get access to.

I suspect that for these reasons 90% of people have dealt with this to some extent, and contrary to popular belief it's not only men. Women do consume porn at a somewhat lower rate than men do, but it's not a humongous difference.

IMHO, the biggest problem with porn isn't the thoughts it puts into our heads, it's the way it drives us into the shadows because of our shame. It separates us from our friends, family, church and God because we feel so dirty and ashamed of ourselves for indulging in it that we start to hid that part of ourselves, locking it away. The more of ourselves we hide, the easier it is for Satan to gain power over us.

It's true that porn exploits young women (amateur studios being shockingly bad, with the professional studios out in CA being somewhat more mainstream) and it's true that it can distort our idea of what a healthy sex life should look like. Those are easier to deal with though, since most people know this already.

I know what that addiction cycle is like. You get bored one evening or maybe you see an attractive woman on TV or out in the world and it plants the thought in your mind. (For those unfamiliar with the addiction cycle, this is called the "trigger.") At first you don't do anything about it and just keep on doing your normal thing. Gradually though it starts to take up more and more of your thoughts until you start looking for an opportunity to indulge. Now, this is where the shame starts, because we feel weak and helpless. We *want* what we know we shouldn't want. We plan to do something wrong even though we know we shouldn't. We're going to sin and we know it.

Psychologically, this is considered the point at which another trip through the cycle is inevitable. The fall is coming fast. Eventually we indulge and we do whatever it is we shouldn't do. (Watch porn in this case.) Afterward we feel ashamed, weak and angry at ourselves. Things are no better after doing it than they were before only now we have to turn in all our sobriety chips and start again. We try to make it so that we can't do it again, or maybe make it more difficult. We get rid of the DVDs. We delete all the files. We burn the magazines. We try not to think about how easy it'll be to replace it all.

And thinks are okay for a while. We feel a little better. We feel hopeful. We feel the sun on our face... but not in that part of us that's hiding in the shadows because, unlike all these other wonderful, fine people sitting in the pews around us at church, WE WATCH PORN and are unclean.

And then, sooner or later, a trigger...

Can you tell I've been there too? You'd be amazed at how many of us have. In a way, I think we Christians are more vulnerable to the worst of it because we KNOW why why we're doing is wrong. Secular minded folks don't see it as being so bad as long as the performers aren't being exploited and are of legal age... but not so for those who view porn as being inherently immoral unto itself. We feel ashamed sometimes for watching a movie that has a little nudity in it. (That's a trigger too.) And we hide in the shadows.

For what it's worth, brother... you aren't alone. Not even remotely. We always feel alone because it's such a hard thing to talk openly about, so few people do. Again, props to you for this.
No, I have not told her and I have no intention of telling her. It would only hurt her and that wouldn't help anything. Indeed one of the steps of recovery is to make amends except when doing so would hurt the person you wronged. And how would I make amends anyway? By simply doing what I know I need to do. So I'll do that a spare her the pain of my infidelity.
I wasn't going to talk about this, but I'm gonna.

I've been right where you are, and I rationalized not telling her in exactly the same way you're doing. Brother, I know you don't want to hear this (because I sure as heck didn't) but you must tell her. Her trust in you is based entirely on the notion that you WOULD tell her if you were to fall. That means every second that you go without telling her is a betrayal of that trust. Look at it this way: How would you feel if she believed in the same philosophy, that "if he doesn't know it won't hurt him?" Could you ever feel secure in the knowledge that she's been faithful, if you knew she wouldn't tell you if she hadn't?

Yes, it will hurt her to know, but it's hurting you to keep that secret, and eventually your shame, remorse and embarrassment are going to affect your marriage in ways you can't predict. I won't pretend to know what's in your head, but I can tell you that in my case, the "what she doesn't know can't hurt her" logic was just an out I used for a long time to not confess. I'm not saying that you're doing that, only that I was. Carrying that burden in the name of sparing her feelings wasn't noble of me, and it didn't make me a hero. It made me a coward. Again, talking about my own experience here, not yours.

And think of this: You mentioned that what we're looking for with these addictions is to feel wanted and desired. That's hitting the nail right on the head. Your wife is the person who is supposed to make you feel that way. It seems like there's some work she could do to help by providing you with that more. How can she know how serious the situation is if she doesn't know how far it's gone? She has a part to play in helping you get control too. You need her as an ally, and she can be that for you, but you have to let her in.
Going to a recovery program is tricky because of how much I travel for work. If that situation changes I will. I was able to attend one Celebrate Recovery meeting in California and it wasn't as organized as I would have liked. Men and women had separate groups, which is very good (I've heard from a friend that SA and SAA groups aren't segregated and hooking up was easy), but I was lumped together with drug addicts (there were likely alcoholics there too but they didn't speak up) and that didn't feel right. It may have simply been the location. You can't color all groups because of the actions of one.
I once tried a couple of SA meetings about... I dunno maybe 20 years ago. I didn't find them to be very useful. It was good to know I wasn't alone, but the folks in that meeting all struggled with different forms of sex addiction that didn't really feel relevant to mine. It was nice to be in an environment where nobody would judge you, but that was all I could say for it.

How do I deal with it now? Well, my addiction cycle is far, far longer and more difficult to trigger. I think a greater influence of the Church in my life is a big part of it, but let's be honest, I'm getting older too. That's got to have an effect. One thing that helped a lot was a documentary I saw on Netflix called "Hot Girls Wanted." It was about young women (around 18 - 20) who get started in the amateur porn business that thrives in Florida, and how their "career" lasts only about 12 - 18 months before they're used up and have to start finding more and more extreme niches to fill to be able to find work. Eventually they try to go back to a normal life but now they have a stigma attached to them because they did porn. One young woman committed suicide after she went back to college and was harassed by male students who'd seen her videos. Knowing that added an extra layer of "icky" to the amateur stuff, and to be honest the California professional stuff never interested me much for reasons I don't need to go into here, so these factors have helped me resist.

I do not claim to be perfect. It's been a while since I consumed any of that stuff but I am trying not to become complacent. Addictions can go into remission but they never disappear.
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Re: I Am An Addict (Mature Subject Matter)

Postby selderane » Tue Jun 07, 2016 7:08 pm

Yeah. Once an addict always an addict.

I know this is gonna sound weird, but the show Elementary really helped me to understand addiction. I love the show outside of that but it's great the show also treats addiction honestly and tells us that of all people even Sherlock Holmes can be an addict and relapse.

I understand what you're saying about telling my wife. You could very well be right. I'm not there yet but if it becomes clear to me that I need to say something I will.
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Re: I Am An Addict (Mature Subject Matter)

Postby ArcticFox » Tue Jun 07, 2016 7:10 pm

I understand what you're saying about telling my wife. You could very well be right. I'm not there yet but if it becomes clear to me that I need to say something I will.
Fair enough. It's a hard road.
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Re: I Am An Addict (Mature Subject Matter)

Postby Lazarus » Tue Jun 07, 2016 10:03 pm

I realize that porn addiction and sex addiction is real, but the addiction is the problem. Demonizing porn and people's natural urges doesn't help anyone and I really hate how many young religious people, including myself, felt so much guilt and shame and self-loathing in their younger years for absolutely no good reason.

If you think porn ruins marriages, then all marriages must be a lie, because the only people who will tell you they don't look at porn are asexuals and liars.

I'm sorry to hear about the void in your life and I honestly wish your religion could help you overcome your addiction. It really drives people away when they figure out that God isn't even listening, much less helping.

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Re: I Am An Addict (Mature Subject Matter)

Postby selderane » Tue Jun 07, 2016 11:12 pm

No one is demonizing sex. I'm not sure how you got that.

But demonizing porn? I can get on board with that. I'd never support legislation banning it (adults be adults, yo) but I'm also not a fan of banning hard drugs for the same reason. That said, I'm not gonna act like snorting cocaine is a net benefit in one's life.

And painting all married people with the same brush (they all watch porn!) seems to be that you're trying to justify your own behavior. That is, if everyone is secretly doing it it's fine. It's either good behavior or it isn't. You don't need to drag other people into the discussion if you honestly feel there's nothing wrong with consuming pornography.

No one is making the argument that hugging is good for couples because all couples hug. Good behavior doesn't need to be defended.

Furthermore, troubles in marriages don't make marriages a lie. It simply mean they're troubled marriages. There have been troubled marriages for as long as there have been marriages, but for some reason the institution endures.

Sex is a Yahweh-created behavior for husbands and wives to enjoy. Porn perverts it all and turns an act that is giving and selfless into simple self-gratification and, as I said, trains the brain to respond to ever more unrealistic sexual acts and appetites and makes a person unsatisfied with what is an otherwise normal sex life.
I'm sorry to hear about the void in your life and I honestly wish your religion could help you overcome your addiction. It really drives people away when they figure out that God isn't even listening, much less helping.
And something did happen to me on that front that I haven't gone in to. But it was made very clear to me that, yes, Yahweh is listening and helping.

But He can only act when I make the choice to refrain from the behavior.
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Re: I Am An Addict (Mature Subject Matter)

Postby ArcticFox » Tue Jun 07, 2016 11:56 pm

And painting all married people with the same brush (they all watch porn!) seems to be that you're trying to justify your own behavior.
This happens a lot, and it's a contributing factor to addiction. People make an effort to break the cycle but there are external influences telling them they needn't worry about it. It's literally the same as singing the praises of cigarettes to someone who's been trying to quit smoking.

I can't understand why someone would equate condemning pornography with demonizing sex unless they regard porn as the equivalent to sex. That's a big problem.
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Re: I Am An Addict (Mature Subject Matter)

Postby Lazarus » Wed Jun 08, 2016 12:30 am

Meh. I'm just going to ignore the personal attacks and misquoting of what I said. It was five short sentences, guys, and you couldn't even handle that.

If you think God helped you, that's great. I don't know what really happened to you, all I can say is that He clearly didn't want to help some of us.

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Re: I Am An Addict (Mature Subject Matter)

Postby BlockHeadLewie » Wed Jun 08, 2016 12:33 am

Wow, tight topic. Really tight. Like drumskin-sorta tight. Rat-a-tat-tat.
There is one comment I wish to use in defense of the need to tell your wife: The more of ourselves we hide, the easier it is for Satan to gain power over us. (Thanks ArcticFox!)
I myself have in fact been involved with another woman one time many years ago. It was no mistake, no accident, it didn't 'just happen'. I planned for it, worked out details and even saved money to buy a 'gift to seal the deal.' I enjoyed the time we had together right up to when we separated for the night. She was going to work and I had to go home.
Yeah, I was at her apartment. As I was walking down the steps toward the street it hit me exactly what I had done. I betrayed my own vow to my wife to be loyal. Oh sure I knew that was what I was doing AS it was happening, but it didn't truly seem 'that big of a deal' until I was actually headed home. I started to hurt, and hurt literally everywhere. Totally convicted, totally destroyed and totally broken.
A few days later (after talking to some 'friends' for advice and hearing 'oh don't worry about it, it happens' or 'well you are human after all' and of course 'don't tell your wife, it'll ruin your life') God had been dealing with my heart the entire time so I broke down and asked my wife if we could talk. I told her it was serious, told her she had no blame at all whatsoever and it was totally all me and my own responsibility. When I told her what I had done there was no fight, no rage and no accusing. There was also no unity at the moment either. No she didn't hate me, nor was she even angry, just upset and hurt. For days and days later we talked about it and slowly it just became a 'past situation.' What really helped a LOT was a third party for us both to talk to.
God sent Jesus into this world to be a LIGHT to shine into darkness. Satan obviously don't want all darkness reviled as he would lose a lot of special control. When Satan's plans are exposed, just like any other problem in the world, solutions become easier to see. (Remember Jesus has overcome this world!)
Now I wouldn't say 'run to her right now and tell her.' I would indeed be a total blockhead to suggest that. I would be wise to suggest that you first talk to her about how you recognize the error you made and it is not her fault at all you made the mistake. It also does help to have an honest, respectful and loving friend as a third party. The more neutral they can be, the better, for neither you nor your wife should feel they are 'on the side of the other unfairly.'
There is already one good thing on your side: You've already talked to her about your porn addiction and she was supportive. Why would she change this feeling if she meant it?
God makes the appointments and I'm glad you keep yours! (Posting here what you did is, in point of fact, looking for another iron to sharpen yourself on. I pray my post as well as the others help you! I will also pray for you. (You being a plural word here since 'two have become one'. Yes, I'll be praying for your wife as well.)
If God is my Pilot and fully in control of the flight, I guess that makes me a Steward on the plane. How may I serve you?

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Re: I Am An Addict (Mature Subject Matter)

Postby ArcticFox » Wed Jun 08, 2016 6:47 pm

It shouldn't surprise me as much as it does, but this story seems more commonplace than most people would guess.

I don't think any of us would blame porn for our mistakes per se, but it's definitely a factor. Interestingly, people sometimes turn to porn because they're lonely, not just because they like to see what's on the screen. Why is that? Maybe it's because they can visually experience someone getting what the watcher is craving... a little like how people sometimes watch adventure movies to live vicariously through the action hero.

Of course, eventually it doesn't work so well, and the next step is... experience it live. And that's where the big problems begin. Can we say that if it weren't for porn people wouldn't take that next step? Of course we can't say that... if anything it might slow down the process in some cases, I don't know. What I do know is that it makes it a lot harder to truly recover, because it's so easy to revisit that material... and then the cycle repeats.

I've never, in all my life, heard a single convincing argument defending porn. Not one.
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Re: I Am An Addict (Mature Subject Matter)

Postby selderane » Thu Jun 09, 2016 4:35 am

I have a friend who defends porn saying that it can help with intimacy issues for some couples. I dunno. Maybe? I guess. I'm sure there are other avenues to try. If you can't get aroused by your spouse without watching someone else bang then there are deeper issues.

But if you're a Christian that simply doesn't fly even if there is a demonstrable benefit simply because of what sex is supposed to be and it's unlikely that the pair you're watching go at it are married.

I want to respond to this real quick:
If you think God helped you, that's great. I don't know what really happened to you, all I can say is that He clearly didn't want to help some of us.
I know precisely how this feels. I don't believe there's a Christian who has lived who hasn't felt like Yahweh isn't listening or doesn't care. Who hasn't felt this way several times in their life.

My heart breaks for you, it really does. But Yahweh does care. He does listen. And I would say there are indeed times He doesn't act like we wish He would, even in times we think it would make sense to. The Apostle Paul suffered from an affliction that Yahweh never healed. We don't know why, but that didn't dissuade Paul from preaching.

If we believe Yahweh is good and loving, but doesn't respond to us, it follows there's a good reason. We may never know the reason, but there's a reason. And sometimes He simply can't respond because of what we're doing that is interfering. Sin ties Yahweh's hands.

Darkness itself can interfere with His involvement too.

I can't speak to the nature of your hurt but I can assure you He hurts along with you and He desperately wants to have a relationship with you. So much so He became flesh and bore the cost of our sins upon Himself and was crucified.

The cross proves His love for us better than anything. You can't have a Creator indifferent to our pain and still have the Crucifixion. They both cannot exist.

So, if you believe the Crucifixion happened then you know Yahweh loves us. If you don't believe it happened then you're angry at a Creator who doesn't care what you think... or doesn't even exist at all. So what's the point?
Everything above this sentence is opinion and worth precisely what was paid for it.
Everything below this sentence is indisputable fact as verified by scientists, philosophers, scholars, clergy, and David Bowie.

If Star Wars: Destiny is a CCG, X-Wing is an LCG.

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Lazarus
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Re: I Am An Addict (Mature Subject Matter)

Postby Lazarus » Thu Jun 09, 2016 9:21 am

I'm not angry at God. What's He ever done to me? People may have mislead me when it comes to religion, but even then they're just as misguided as I was, so I don't get too upset at them either.
The crucifixion story never made sense to me even when I was a Christian. It's not justice to punish someone for another person's transgressions, nor is it a true sacrifice if Jesus came back to life. Also, I don't believe most of the "sin" that many people commit is worthy of death, so it was overkill to begin with. Nobody should be tortured to death for minor crimes.


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