a serious misnomer and confusion

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Dirkdigdeep
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a serious misnomer and confusion

Postby Dirkdigdeep » Fri Jan 15, 2016 10:30 pm

Since the time when the scriptures were first translated into the Anglo Saxon language the word "God" has been misapplied to be used as a proper noun of a PERSON. What I am about to say is SUBTLE because it requires you to think outside of the comfort zone / box you have always used . BUT, if you will but consider the argument , it can end the confusion over the trinity, which is a very good thing. I would ask you think long and deep about what I am about to share.
IF "god" is a NAME of a person, and the Father is the name of a person, and Jesus is the name of a Person, and the Holy Spirit is the name of a person, then we would have FOUR persons in the Godhead. IN FACT while some times rendered (primarily in the OT) from a proper NAME ( like YHWH, Bill, JOE or Suzy) in the NT Greek it is usually the word "THEOS" which means deity or deities. As such, its a descriptive word, adjective in application rather than a proper noun. It does not name a person but describes a nature and essence of deity ( omnipotence , omnipresence, omniscience, eternal) that is how we define "god" in the Judeo / Christian theology. This nature and essence of deity is what we SHOULD be thinking when we say "god". So when we say: Jesus is DEITY (god) , The father is DEITY, the Holy Spirit is DEITY, we are correcting this misuse of the term. they are all ONE DEITY ( same exactly in nature and essence of deity) As the Church says: "ONE deity manifest in three persons". Suddenly Jesus statement that "God ( theos) is a Spirit" makes all kinds of sense. Sadly the world, religions and even Christians have been using the term as a persons name for so long that it seems impossible to bring us back to sound understanding, but we begin with the first step. Remember the trinity is easy..one common deity ( nature and essence of) shared by all three persons. THIS IS NOT Pantheism. Pantheism properly defined believes in a multiple of deities of varying independent levels natures powers and areas of influence. We as Christians believe in ONE "GOD" Isaiah 43: 10, and only one. I hope this makes you think and consider that words can be powerfuk to guiding us into truth, or leading us into confusion.

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Re: a serious misnomer and confusion

Postby BlockHeadLewie » Sat Jan 16, 2016 2:36 pm

My understanding of the use of "Father" was always pointing to the fact God made us, hence He is Father. Since there IS only one God everyone accepted God as Father.
This is what I feel deep within my being, but I am human after all!
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Re: a serious misnomer and confusion

Postby ArcticFox » Sat Jan 16, 2016 2:45 pm

IF "god" is a NAME of a person, and the Father is the name of a person, and Jesus is the name of a Person, and the Holy Spirit is the name of a person, then we would have FOUR persons in the Godhead.
This doesn't make sense, brother. This is literally the same as saying:

IF "train" is a NAME of a vehicle, and the locomotive is the name of a vehicle, and the coal car is the name of a vehicle, and the boxcar is the name of a vehicle, then we would have FOUR vehicles in the transport.

When people say "God" they are generally thinking of The Father. I think you're taking a simple thing and making it complex for no real reason.

No offense, that's just how I see it. :)
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Re: a serious misnomer and confusion

Postby Dirkdigdeep » Tue Jan 19, 2016 5:29 pm

It actually makes all KINDS of sense. The major cause of confusion over the trinity is this misuse of the term "god" for someones name when in fact its descriptive. the question keeps arising in those who do not believe in this salvific doctrine: How can GOD be the son and the Father and the HS ( THREE OTHER persons) ? Your example is simply inadequate to the issue i am presenting. Your grasp of precise English is apparently lacking a proper discernment that a coal car is NOT a TRAIN and none of the others are a train, in so far as they are all not part of a whole train. Its a bad example. Try reading again my post and paying attention to the words. GOD is NOT a PROPER name. its a DESCRIPTION of a nature and essence we call (Judeo/ Christin theology) "DEITY" Greek > Theos. you simply ought not to use the word as someones PERSONAL name since that is a misleading usage.
The TRINITY is defined as one common nature and essence of deity as "God" < a DESCRIPTION of that , shared equally by all three persons. The word Theos/ Deity, ( a word defining the Anglo Saxon "god") is not a person or else there would be FOUR "persons" in the Godhead. The Three persons share a precisely identical one nature as one DEITY , yet remain distinct in person . The best example would be the word "HUMANITY". We all share the one same nature and essence of humanity , yet we remain all distinct in person. Where Humanity is a adjective defining a quality or nature and essence we call human. Another example is the word "TREE" where it is used singularly for a distinct tree , when used in this sentence ist an adjective. > the trees (descriptive) of the forest Forest ( proper noun) where the Forest is the subject and the word trees is descriptive.
Jesus is GOD by the FACT that he shares the nature and essence of god-ness ( deity) equally with the Father and the Holy Spirit. Making is ONE common nature of deity shared equally by all three PERSONS. "One GOD manifest in three PERSONS only makes sense when you stop using the word GOD as a persons NAME . Other wise you have a logical impossibility which caused all the heresies devised against the trinity.
You say I am making something simple more complicated when quite the opposite is true. I am taking a confusion and a twisted understanding straight and simply . Imagine a block of gold, where gold is the biblical archetype for deity.This represents the common nature and essence of the deity now of that there exists that block of gold as three distinct things a knife a fork and a spoon , ALL SHARING THE EXACT SAME NATURE AND ESSENCE OF GOLD (DEITY). Gold becomes a descriptive term of a nature and essence shared equally by all three of those things.
Last edited by Dirkdigdeep on Tue Jan 19, 2016 5:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: a serious misnomer and confusion

Postby Dirkdigdeep » Tue Jan 19, 2016 5:41 pm

My understanding of the use of "Father" was always pointing to the fact God made us, hence He is Father. Since there IS only one God everyone accepted God as Father.
This is what I feel deep within my being, but I am human after all!
Peace!
8)
Didn't you even read the post? You have just used the word God as a persons personal NAME like Bill and Joe. This not about the Father being deity or the creator, as scriptures declares the Spirit is also the creator Genesis 1: 1-7 AND it also declares that Jesus is the creator in Heb 1:2 and John 1: 1-3. Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD [ YHWH] do all these things. Gen 1:3 And God [properly: Elohim / Holy Spirit] said, Let there be light: and there was light. Jesus> Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. Jesus> Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
So you see; they ALL made the creation but this was done by Jesus as the one DEITY, ... One deity manifest IN three persons.

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Re: a serious misnomer and confusion

Postby ArcticFox » Tue Jan 19, 2016 5:58 pm

It actually makes all KINDS of sense. The major cause of confusion over the trinity is this misuse of the term "god" for someones name when in fact its descriptive. the question keeps arising in those who do not believe in this salvific doctrine: How can GOD be the son and the Father and the HS ( THREE OTHER persons) ? Your example is simply inadequate to the issue i am presenting. Your grasp of precise English is apparently lacking a proper discernment that a coal car is NOT a TRAIN and none of the others are a train, in so far as they are all not part of a whole train. Its a bad example. Try reading again my post and paying attention to the words. GOD is NOT a PROPER name. its a DESCRIPTION of a nature and essence we call (Judeo/ Christin theology) "DEITY" Greek > Theos. you simply ought not to use the word as someones PERSONAL name since that is a misleading usage.
Despite your confrontational and mildly insulting tone, I couldn't help but chuckle a little to myself that you'd question my grasp of precise English given the grammatical and spelling errors you presented. You keep advising us to re-read your post, as if somehow everybody's reading comprehension is the problem and not your own lack of clarity. My suggestion is that you check the beam in thine own eye, my friend. :wink:

I still have no idea how you derive the notion that referring to Heavenly Father as "God" equates to 4 persons in the Godhead. If you don't like my train metaphor, then you should probably offer a better one, since I can't make heads or tails of your original comment.
The TRINITY is defined as one common nature and essence of deity as "God" < a DESCRIPTION of that , shared equally by all three persons. The word Theos/ Deity, ( a word defining the Anglo Saxon "god") is not a person or else there would be FOUR "persons" in the Godhead.
This still doesn't make sense to me. How does the improper use of a title generate a 4th being in the Godhead?
The Three persons share a precisely identical one nature as one DEITY , yet remain distinct in person . The best example would be the word "HUMANITY". We all share the one same nature and essence of humanity , yet we remain all distinct in person. Where Humanity is a adjective defining a quality or nature and essence we call human. Another example is the word "TREE" where it is used singularly for a distinct tree , when used in this sentence ist an adjective. > the trees (descriptive) of the forest Forest ( proper noun) where the Forest is the subject and the word trees is descriptive.
That metaphor falls short of defining the Trinity as Trinitarians express it. Humanity is a collective noun that references all humans as a group. Your metaphor here suggests that you view the term "trinity" as a collection of 3 individual beings. That isn't what the Trinity doctrine states. The same goes for the tree analogy. This makes no sense to me, and I read it over several times. Must be my poor understanding of precise English? :)
Jesus is GOD by the FACT that he shares the nature and essence of god-ness ( deity) equally with the Father and the Holy Spirit. Making is ONE common nature of deity shared equally by all three PERSONS. "One GOD manifest in three PERSONS only makes sense when you stop using the word GOD as a persons NAME . Other wise you have a logical impossibility which caused all the heresies devised against the trinity.
If by that you mean that it's bad practice to refer to Heavenly Father as "God" specifically, then I agree. I catch myself doing it sometimes, but you are correct that Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are collectively the Godhead.

Is that what you've been trying to say?

Let me offer you a piece of personal advice. You will gain no credibility on these forums by taking an insulting and aggressive attitude toward others. Everybody's welcome here, and is free to disagree and debate, but you will not find much success if you come off as rude and confrontational. I'm happy to debate any topic with you anytime, but only as long as it's civil and reasonable.

Fair enough? 8)
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Re: a serious misnomer and confusion

Postby Sstavix » Tue Jan 19, 2016 7:01 pm

Your grasp of precise English is apparently lacking a proper discernment ....
:lol: My apologies in advance - especially if English is not your native language - but your posts aren't exactly easy to comprehend, either.
Imagine a block of gold, where gold is the biblical archetype for deity.This represents the common nature and essence of the deity now of that there exists that block of gold as three distinct things a knife a fork and a spoon , ALL SHARING THE EXACT SAME NATURE AND ESSENCE OF GOLD (DEITY). Gold becomes a descriptive term of a nature and essence shared equally by all three of those things.
This is a key example. You're taking a block of gold, and forging it into three separate, distinct entities, each with its own purpose and function. Just like the idea of the Godhead taking the form and function of three different entities of the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. So I'm with you there... but then you say we should refer to the fork, spoon and knife all as the same block of gold? That makes no logical sense - they've been formed into three different objects. They may all be the same material and come from the same source, but they are no longer the same object. If anything, your analogy actually supports ArcticFox's train analogy (and actually makes more sense, really....). What side of the issue are you taking here, because it's not really clear....

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Re: a serious misnomer and confusion

Postby RoosterOnAStick » Thu Jan 21, 2016 1:56 pm

My understanding of the use of "Father" was always pointing to the fact God made us, hence He is Father. Since there IS only one God everyone accepted God as Father.
This is what I feel deep within my being, but I am human after all!
Peace!
8)
Didn't you even read the post? You have just used the word God as a persons personal NAME like Bill and Joe. This not about the Father being deity or the creator, as scriptures declares the Spirit is also the creator Genesis 1: 1-7 AND it also declares that Jesus is the creator in Heb 1:2 and John 1: 1-3. Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD [ YHWH] do all these things. Gen 1:3 And God [properly: Elohim / Holy Spirit] said, Let there be light: and there was light. Jesus> Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. Jesus> Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
So you see; they ALL made the creation but this was done by Jesus as the one DEITY, ... One deity manifest IN three persons.
Dirk, dude, chill out man. I'm gonna be straight with you here your posts are becoming increasingly aggressive and come off mean spirited.

This is not speaking the Truth in Love. Sorry man, you need both.

Anyway to answer one thing, if you recall the original Nicene-Constantinople creed, it gives a very succinct description of the Trinity, the three persons of the one deity, how they go together, relate to one another, and what they do. Just start there.
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Re: a serious misnomer and confusion

Postby BlockHeadLewie » Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:56 pm

My understanding of the use of "Father" was always pointing to the fact God made us, hence He is Father. Since there IS only one God everyone accepted God as Father.
This is what I feel deep within my being, but I am human after all!
Peace!
8)
Didn't you even read the post? You have just used the word God as a persons personal NAME like Bill and Joe. This not about the Father being deity or the creator, as scriptures declares the Spirit is also the creator Genesis 1: 1-7 AND it also declares that Jesus is the creator in Heb 1:2 and John 1: 1-3. Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD [ YHWH] do all these things. Gen 1:3 And God [properly: Elohim / Holy Spirit] said, Let there be light: and there was light. Jesus> Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. Jesus> Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
So you see; they ALL made the creation but this was done by Jesus as the one DEITY, ... One deity manifest IN three persons.
Dirk, dude, chill out man. I'm gonna be straight with you here your posts are becoming increasingly aggressive and come off mean spirited.

This is not speaking the Truth in Love. Sorry man, you need both.

Anyway to answer one thing, if you recall the original Nicene-Constantinople creed, it gives a very succinct description of the Trinity, the three persons of the one deity, how they go together, relate to one another, and what they do. Just start there.
Thank you for your post. If we allow ourselves to fall into "Hey, I think this means this" attitude on everything we'd all find excuse to be insulted. Don't know how God did it, but I'm part duck: Loads of things roll off like drops of water. Sure I've had some drops hurt more than others in the past, but it still rolls off.
Besides, this also brings us back to topic! IF, as I said, we all fall into the trap of "Hey, I think this means this" attitudes regarding The Trinity (or any aspect of God and all that God stands for) then we'll never get anywhere. Falling into our own understandings is indeed a trap and I'm grateful for threads like this! They prove the fullness of God all by themselves, for The Glory of God, and manifest themselves as evidence God is indeed in complete control no matter where or when.
Ever notice how MANY things automatically and naturally give an impression of a group of threes? Even when we're not focused on "3", somehow three's are there.
Take the Body of Christ itself. The Bride will meet Jesus and be united past forever with God's Blessing because He was in control in the first place. Bride, Jesus, God. Consider (almost) any Bible believing Church: Leaders (the pastor, elders, staff, etc), the congregation, and God. Marrage: Husband, Wife, God.
I could go on but there's no need since I've no right to write a book but just allowed to make posts, I'll close with this:
Discussions of any sort have imbedded within them the same division into threes. Please read this as if YOU were saying it, and it will make sense: "There is my point of view, your point of view and God's point of view." God's point of view is the full truth while we merely (sometimes) toss about speculations from our own understanding.
I don't care if the shadow knows or not (just dated myself a little) because all I know is God my Father knows. Period.
Peace!
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Re: a serious misnomer and confusion

Postby Dirkdigdeep » Tue Jan 26, 2016 5:18 pm

Perhaps you think we are all playing philosophy games and any ole opinions as good as anothers? I may sound like a mean person to you. You may want to call me names andf pretend its all my problems and fault because i care enough to speak straight and to the point , instead of the ecumenical spirit of antichrist mealy mouthed responses approved by the ecumenical emergent church spirit of this day. Sorry about that I never learned how. Call me names if it makes you feel better and makes you think you do not have to listen to me. I know who i am and my motivations and WHY i reply the way i do. Let me give you a little background. I was saved around age 6 by reading childrens bible stories. Yes, i understood and comprehended the messages i read. That was 53 years ago. ( do the math) I was called to teach from birth even before i knew and recieved that calling in 1976, 40 years ago. The Holy Spirit began teaching me for another 10-15 years before he allowed me to actualy call myself a teacher and operate in it with authority. Now today "authoritative speaking" also known as patriarchal paradigm is a dirty word as evidenced by your "relax chillax leave me alone" attitude and personal inflamatory insults of my reasons and motives. Something you have no possible way of knowing. Any one who dare say " Thus saith the Lord" is your enemy it would appear and in fact thats EXACTLY how you treated me. Nothing in my response was even remotely bad. I asked honest questions made sincere points and presented valid replies as any MAN ought. I seek intelligent mature discussion. Not pablum baby talk.
From that time 40 years ago the Holy Spirit began teaching me about regeneration . This subject is immense in scriptures. It affects almost everything else directlly or indirectly except mere salvation. I also studied all the other doctrines of men and cults and denoms and religions amd the most important > Doctrines of Christ: 2 John 1: 9-11, which are such importance that they define if you are even saved, or not. The doctrine of the trinity is a salvific doctrine and one of those such doctrines of Christ. I suggest: If it is possible to unravel men's confusion over it in a simple manner as I have done, then why would any christian seek instead to attack ME ( ad HOM attacks are of the devil) and condemn me for my sincerity, instensity and commitment to it? I care about YOU and YOUR salvation, I do NOT care if you like me , want to be like me, or even will hear me, because in that ... you answer to God and NOT me ( Ezekiel 33: 1-9). Some will hear, those that have a love of the truth ( 2 Thess 2: 6-12) I am not a child, i speak not as a child , and when i speak i seek only to speak as an oracle of God. (1Peter 4: 11.) I have done my due dilligence son , have a little respect. 1Ti_5:1 Rebuke not an elder, but intreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren; 1Pe_5:5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble. 1Ti 5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. Heb_13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
Remember, you do not establish the standards, Jesus does. To those who were humble broken willing and needy he came as a lamb, but to those who were haughty and blinded by self righteousness he spoke with fury and with truth that set them to harden thier faces to God. I pray you be the former and not the latter, lest worse judgements come upon you than just having to hear me speak like a Father rather than a child. May the Lord of heaven and hell grant you mercy , you knew not what you were doing. Now you do, see that you pay attention to yourself and that beam in your eye first. And let me get back to my minecraft and to speaking the ruth without respect of persons. You would be wise to plumb the depth of my knowledge like a well of pure water , rather than seek to shut it up lest anyone else drink from it. I have done MY due diligence. Now i wonder how YOU will respond , much will be revealed by it .

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Re: a serious misnomer and confusion

Postby Sstavix » Tue Jan 26, 2016 8:31 pm

... because i care enough to speak straight and to the point , ....
The problem is that you aren't coming through very well. You might think your statement make sense, but others (myself included) tend to find them muddled and contradictory. For lack of better term, you may want to "dumb it down" so others can understand the points you're trying to make.
..., and when i speak i seek only to speak as an oracle of God.
If you believe that God has called you to teach, then that's great! Go for it! However, I hope you aren't claiming to be the only person speaking for God on the Earth. I can think of at least two prominent Christian organizations (and their members) that would disagree with you on that point. ;)

That aside, it's been a long-held belief of mine that God speaks to every single one of us. Only problem is, most of us have forgotten how - or choose not - to listen.

Getting back to my earlier point, if you do believe that God has specifically called you - and only you - to each His true word, you can expect to find some resistance. Especially with the belligerent attitude you've portrayed periodically. You may need to find an Aaron to your Moses.
(1Peter 4: 11.) I have done my due dilligence son , have a little respect. 1Ti_5:1 Rebuke not an elder, but intreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren; 1Pe_5:5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble. 1Ti 5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. Heb_13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
If you think we should listen to you because you're older than most of us (myself included... but not by much. ;) ) then I would have to disagree with you there as well. While it is good - even commanded - to respect your elders, it shouldn't be a given that everything older people say automatically makes it true. Especially in spiritual matters. To you, or anyone, I offer this advice. Listen to what others have to say and ponder it in your mind. Then, when you have the chance, get upon your knees and pray to your Father in Heaven, with all honesty, humility and faith, if the things you've heard and been taught are true. God will not steer you wrong, but you need to do your part in listening to Him.

Good luck with your Minecraft! :)

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Re: a serious misnomer and confusion

Postby ChickenSoup » Tue Jan 26, 2016 10:13 pm

I know who i am and my motivations and WHY i reply the way i do.
Does it stem from a grasp of precise English? :P
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Re: a serious misnomer and confusion

Postby ArcticFox » Tue Jan 26, 2016 11:14 pm

You may want to call me names...
Who has been calling you names?
Call me names if it makes you feel better and makes you think you do not have to listen to me.
Again, who's calling you names?

Brother, if people want excuses not to listen to you, they can very easily find plenty, including your belligerent attitude, your posts which are difficult to read, and random Scripture verses you toss out without elaborating on your point. Dude, we offer you constructive criticism because we can see you're sincere and want to contribute to the discussion, but your posts are just hard to read. You can either make an effort to make them more clear, or you can sit back and do exactly what you're accusing us of doing.
Now today "authoritative speaking" also known as patriarchal paradigm is a dirty word as evidenced by your "relax chillax leave me alone" attitude and personal inflamatory insults of my reasons and motives.
Exactly whom are you addressing here?
Nothing in my response was even remotely bad. I asked honest questions made sincere points and presented valid replies as any MAN ought. I seek intelligent mature discussion. Not pablum baby talk.
Well, we could do without your rudeness, for one thing. You've already been spoken to by site admins about your behavior here. So I'd say that qualifies as more than "remotely bad."
If it is possible to unravel men's confusion over it in a simple manner as I have done, then why would any christian seek instead to attack ME ( ad HOM attacks are of the devil) and condemn me for my sincerity, instensity and commitment to it?
Again, who's attacking you as a person or condemn you for your sincerity? You've been offered constructive criticism over your ability to communicate your thoughts. Do you not see the difference?
You would be wise to plumb the depth of my knowledge like a well of pure water , rather than seek to shut it up lest anyone else drink from it. I have done MY due diligence. Now i wonder how YOU will respond , much will be revealed by it .
Do you realize just how much hubris is in that statement, brother? You just bragged about your own understanding, boasting, which is precisely what we're counseled not to do.

Again I say to you, in an effort to reach you constructively, you need to work on the clarity of your words. It is much too much work to try to decipher what you're saying for any message of yours to have much impact. Ignore my advice if you want, but maybe you should start looking inward for answers if you can't understand why people aren't inclined to take you seriously.
"He who takes offense when no offense is intended is a fool, and he who takes offense when offense is intended is a greater fool."
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"Don't take refuge in the false security of consensus."
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Re: a serious misnomer and confusion

Postby Dirkdigdeep » Wed Jan 27, 2016 7:02 pm

Its like talking to dead people .

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Re: a serious misnomer and confusion

Postby ccgr » Wed Jan 27, 2016 7:31 pm

Image


On a serious note I think this thread has run it's course....


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