Why Aren’t More Intellectuals Believers?

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Re: Why Aren’t More Intellectuals Believers?

Postby ChickenSoup » Fri Dec 11, 2015 12:26 pm

I mean, to be fair, I know plenty of believers who are like that. It's really just people.
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Re: Why Aren’t More Intellectuals Believers?

Postby ArcticFox » Fri Dec 11, 2015 1:48 pm

I mean, to be fair, I know plenty of believers who are like that. It's really just people.
That's true, and I find it equally irritating.
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Re: Why Aren’t More Intellectuals Believers?

Postby Jorgmeisterwork » Mon Dec 14, 2015 2:04 pm

Dear ccgr,

why, the answer should be quite obvious. I think Wikipedia has a nice definition of "intellectual" which may help shed some light on it.

"An intellectual is a person who engages in critical study, thought, and reflection about the reality of society, and proposes solutions for the normative problems of that society, and, by such discourse in the public sphere, he or she gains authority within the public opinion."

How can you be a believer and also engage in critical study/thought or reflect about reality? Isn't being a believer the exact opposite of this? The reality of society is unfortunately, that religion is NOT exactly a trait of the intelligent.

If you are going to bash my language, please consider that I am not a native speaker ;)
You have A LOT to learn about how different people are, how people think, feel, and act, and how little accurate the sorting of people can be ;)

You should also read the bible, at least the New testament. If you have already did, read it again, all of it, in Your own tempo, and you may be surprised of how intellectual Jesus is. He really puts every one of us in our place. Christians too. You will also meet people of all the different categories we know today. It was though not to be strongest 2000 years ago, and if you read the old testament, 4000 years ago as well. Believing what the bible says means accepting that you will never be able to be on the top. That is a bigger problem for people rather than how the universe works. It tells us we cant rank over other people by our own mentally strenght.


(I am not an native englsih speaker either, so it is a possibillty of grammatic errors here too)

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Re: Why Aren’t More Intellectuals Believers?

Postby Dirkdigdeep » Sun Jan 03, 2016 2:51 pm

Dear ccgr,

why, the answer should be quite obvious. I think Wikipedia has a nice definition of "intellectual" which may help shed some light on it.

"An intellectual is a person who engages in critical study, thought, and reflection about the reality of society, and proposes solutions for the normative problems of that society, and, by such discourse in the public sphere, he or she gains authority within the public opinion."

How can you be a believer and also engage in critical study/thought or reflect about reality? Isn't being a believer the exact opposite of this? The reality of society is unfortunately, that religion is NOT exactly a trait of the intelligent.

If you are going to bash my language, please consider that I am not a native speaker ;)
OH YES ! the answer IS quite obvious as you have displayed the very reason we cant talk to such self proclaimed intellectuals as your mighty self. Actually the list of highly intelligent believers throughout history is vast. This post by obviously a NON believer, shows why talking to these pseudo elite intellectuals is vain. As they dismiss anyone who claims faith as non intellectual by default. Josh McDowell states in his Book > MORE EVIDENCE THAT DEMANDS A VERDICT, THAT WE AS CHRISTIANS HAVE A REASONED FAITH BASED NOT IN MYTH OR LEGEND , BUT WELL ESTABLISHED HISTORICAL ACCOUNT AND FACTS. The humanist naturalism is a requirement for so called intellectual qualification is specious on its face ! i quote the same supposed source authority on this list of Christian intellectuals throughout history : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_C ... technology I won't waste time listing the hundreds of names there , though i doubt, our pseudo intellectual friend will look them up. Some names include Werner Von Braun and many others who were Nobel prize winners.
I think the question is more at fault since it assume what modern liberal propaganda tries to make true by repeated lies : That there are NO
intellectual Christians"??? Talk about begging the question! I use critical thinking on ALL my studies and research and i am able to show fallibility and repeat-ability to all my evidences. I also know there is a God, and that Jesus is God. Now YOU all have to do is disprove that. BUT to do so, you must FIRST prove you are omniscient, for without that ability the best you can say is ..."I don't think..." and in that you are finally being truthful ! Lol

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Re: Why Aren’t More Intellectuals Believers?

Postby Dirkdigdeep » Sun Jan 03, 2016 3:10 pm

The bible is abundantly clear as why "more intellectuals are not believers" : Only those of a humble and contrite spirit can know God. This flies in the face of the proud man who revels in the gift of intellect. 1Co 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
1Co 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
1Co 1:28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
1Co 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
This world is set up by those stooges of satan to promote naturalistic humanist science , so called, 1Ti_6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: But we Know that life does not spring from non life ( abiogenesis) that chaos does not create INFORMATION, that anything that has a beginning must have a first cause GREATER than that which began ( Creator) That Beauty mind and morality cannot exists apart from a Creator who has and understand these things. That since the universe had a beginning, that it was fine tuned to support life, that morality and beauty and other NON physical things exist, then a God also can and does and MUST exist!
Intellectualism does NOT impress God, but heart that is humble enough to believe in someone greater than them self is wise and open to receive truth, another of those non scientific realities that no naturalism can truly explain. Its just to much for those who have no faith to comprehend so that an " intellectual" is actually just the opposite and unable to comprehend anything enough to truly understand that there is a creator.

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Re: Why Aren’t More Intellectuals Believers?

Postby ArcticFox » Mon Jan 04, 2016 10:26 am

That's just it... there's a very clear effort to cast Christians (or believers of any religion, for that matter) as being intellectually inferior. This paves the way for cultural marginalization.
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Re: Why Aren’t More Intellectuals Believers?

Postby Angrus » Wed Jun 29, 2016 2:53 am

Quite a bit of argument on this post, but I won't take issue with anyone in particular, just place a few thoughts into the mix:

If God exists, then He created every science that exists, since it is a rational explanation of what He has created.
If God created things with a certain order about them (as would make sense given His intelligence) then science should be able to make truthful comments on those things based on observation that can be repeated and demonstrated, as in fact it does.
If everything sprang into being without a cause, bringing order from chaos, why don't we see that anywhere in science? For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction... this indicates that there is a cause to each effect. Science shows us in a repeatable and demonstrable fashion that things tend to become less complex over time unless acted on by an outside force... If God exists, He is an outside force acting on creation to make things more complex. If God does not exist, the explanation is that things became more complex over time with no outside interference... an assertion that cannot be backed up scientifically, and which does not agree with what we see around us.
If evolution claims that things became more complex without outside interference (and it does) then it defies scientific logic in a way that presupposing a creator God does not.
If evolution counteracts scientific thought, can it truly be called a science? If it is no science, and defies scientific logic, then it can more accurately be described as a religion in the way that some in this thread have used the term, believing in something despite not having any evidence.
Based on the above criteria, it would seem that evolution is a religion which requires more faith when looked at scientifically than belief in God.

Now, I'm not claiming to be an intellectual. I'm not sure what's required to give someone that title. I mean, I think that God has given me my share of intelligence, but that doesn't mean I'm any better than anyone else, and certainly there are many smarter than me. My point is that one need not be intellectual to understand that God makes sense. Small, simple, logical steps as shown above will point in that direction without the need for extensive study. (yes, perhaps a rudimentary knowledge of science is required for the above logical steps) Besides which, the second half of 1 Corinthians chapter 1 specifically shows that no great wisdom is needed to be called by God.

I might like to appear smart at times (and I do like to learn and grow more intelligent), but I would rather seem a fool to all, if only God were to count me wise with the wisdom that He provides, and only He can take credit for.

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Re: Why Aren’t More Intellectuals Believers?

Postby ChickenSoup » Wed Jun 29, 2016 10:59 am

Nah
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Re: Why Aren’t More Intellectuals Believers?

Postby ArcticFox » Wed Jun 29, 2016 1:54 pm

If God created things with a certain order about them (as would make sense given His intelligence) then science should be able to make truthful comments on those things based on observation that can be repeated and demonstrated, as in fact it does.
This is true. I was once reading an article where it talked about how in matters of scientific study, the game is to find an explanation that absolutely does not include God on any level. It's basically treated as an axiom that there's no God, so any conclusions drawn from observation of the data cannot include Him. This is where some of the more bizarre scientific "facts" come from. (For example, spontaneous biogenesis is statistically impossible, yet it's taught as fact in high school Biology classes.)
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Re: Why Aren’t More Intellectuals Believers?

Postby skeer » Fri Jul 01, 2016 11:27 pm

While intelligence can be good, memorizing and repeating facts isn't a be all, end all gift. I realized this due to two life lessons.

My step brother was asking me how much math I knew (he is at least 10 years younger), and I told him I knew up to calculus. He said he wanted to learn it. It was obviously way over his level, given he didn't know fractions yet, so my stepdad said, "You aren't ready for that yet." He also added, "I don't know calculus, I've never needed it for my job." And honestly, his job pays fairly well, much over minimum wage. Meanwhile I don't even have a job. Intelligence is no good is you can't apply it to life, this or the next.

A few years later I was trying a comfort someone who was having thoughts of suicide. Eventually he felt better, and he's now studying abstract algebra and topology at the age of 13 or 14. I would consider him much smarter than me, and everyone around me complements ME for how smart I am. Yet from the impression I get from him, his family is indifferent to his gifts.

Here's a question, just out of curiosity. How many intellectuals are suicidal vs non intellectuals? I think I heard more talk of suicide among people smarter than me and younger than 15. The younger than 15 part is mostly because I met them all on a Minecraft server (redstone to be specific). I've had to talk 2 of them out of it so far, and no ones dead (thank God!). I know <15 year olds aren't the best measurement, just the only people I have to talk to usually.

I have nothing against trying to be smart, but if math and science are the only thing you consider as smart, life might throw you for a loop.

As for why more Christians aren't intellectuals, it's hard to be intelligent if you say your Christian, but you rely on the preacher to read the Bible for you. Just my opinion ;)

Edit: oops, I saw a blue box next to this topic and assumed someone posted recently. I guess not :P

Edit 2: oops looked at ArticFox's join date, rather than post date xP

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Re: Why Aren’t More Intellectuals Believers?

Postby Sstavix » Sat Jul 02, 2016 1:49 am

While reading your post, skeer (hi there!) I had a thought flit through my head. It's just a SWAG at this point (SWAG = Situational, Wild-@$$ Guess), but let's run it out and see if it has merit.

You've heard the phrase "ignorance is bliss," right? I think there may be some truth to that statement. Sometimes the happiest people in the world are, quite simply, those who don't know any better. (One of my friends recently had a child with Down's syndrome, and from some of the articles I've read, those with Down's tend to be very cheerful people.) So they may be driven more by emotion than logic or rationalization.

So what does someone with a strong focus on intellectualism do when confronted with an emotional situation? Try to rationalize it. (This could be one reason why some intellectuals - nerds - have troubles in social situations, too.) But what if it gets to the point that they can't really understand it? Or justify it? Or sort out their feelings into logical, manipulative boxes?

They end up feeling inadequate, possibly paving the way to despair and depression. Here's a situation that they can't rationalize their way out of, or in to. The frustration may get to the point where the only options that do make sense is to leave the situation entirely. Sometimes terminally.

Like I said, I don't know if there's any basis to my hypothesis, but it's a thought! :)

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Re: Why Aren’t More Intellectuals Believers?

Postby ChickenSoup » Wed Jul 06, 2016 10:48 pm

I think that's moreso the case in people with some sort of emotional intelligence problem. For people who are just particularly intelligent, it's like you said: ignorance is bliss. Knowing the awfulness of the world can give you a bleak outlook on life. I'm not THAT intelligent and that's how I feel sometimes >_>
This is true. I was once reading an article where it talked about how in matters of scientific study, the game is to find an explanation that absolutely does not include God on any level. It's basically treated as an axiom that there's no God, so any conclusions drawn from observation of the data cannot include Him. This is where some of the more bizarre scientific "facts" come from. (For example, spontaneous biogenesis is statistically impossible, yet it's taught as fact in high school Biology classes.)
I'm gonna get on my soapbox and say that I think it's twisted the other way around--rather, that scientific research seeks to answer questions based purely upon observations and without asking "how did God do it?" and people get irritated that researchers haven't considered the Bible in their observations or something.

It's not like there's a conscious decision by researchers to exclude God, right? Like, when several of my colleagues started their doctoral research projects, they didn't set out to prove how God doesn't have to exist for something to happen. They didn't end their research proposal with "AND OF COURSE, AS WE ALL KNOW, GOD WAS NOT INVOLVED." Science just observes nature as it exists and makes inferences based upon those observations. You'll be hard pressed to find good researchers who arrive at a puzzling problem ("where did life begin?") and are content with the answer "God did it."
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Re: Why Aren’t More Intellectuals Believers?

Postby ArcticFox » Fri Jul 08, 2016 10:57 am

I'm gonna get on my soapbox and say that I think it's twisted the other way around--rather, that scientific research seeks to answer questions based purely upon observations and without asking "how did God do it?" and people get irritated that researchers haven't considered the Bible in their observations or something.
Well the problem is we've been drifting to a more and more polarized discussion these days.
It's not like there's a conscious decision by researchers to exclude God, right?
Well, there is, actually. The claim is that science should lead us wherever the data goes, but as I said, one of the underlying axioms is that it was NOT divine action in any case. Those examples you mentioned may not have directly stated it, but I guarantee in no list of possible hypotheses was divine action considered as a possibility.

So the result is more and more isolation within philosophies. Scientists refuse to talk about God and so Christians feel compelled to withdraw from it because they feel excluded.

Do I think science should mix with religion? No I don't, but I also wish people would be more honest about it.
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Re: Why Aren’t More Intellectuals Believers?

Postby ChickenSoup » Fri Jul 08, 2016 3:50 pm

Well, there is, actually. The claim is that science should lead us wherever the data goes, but as I said, one of the underlying axioms is that it was NOT divine action in any case.
The data come from observations of nature and inferences from the data are, by definition, confined to the natural and observable. We're observing the natural world, and the supernatural does not fall within the scope of science. I understand what you're getting at, but you're blaming a monochromatic camera for not acknowledging color in the pictures it gives us.
Scientists refuse to talk about God and so Christians feel compelled to withdraw from it because they feel excluded.
Like I said before, discussing the supernatural falls outside the scope of science... so why should they talk about God? At the end of the day, they present some evidence that X may cause Y because of Z data, and we are free to say "Ah, yes--as God created it to be."

For the benefit of our discussion: You say you aren't calling for religion and science to mix... but then you seem irritated that they aren't? Can you clarify your objections?
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Re: Why Aren’t More Intellectuals Believers?

Postby ArcticFox » Fri Jul 08, 2016 4:56 pm

The data come from observations of nature and inferences from the data are, by definition, confined to the natural and observable. We're observing the natural world, and the supernatural does not fall within the scope of science. I understand what you're getting at, but you're blaming a monochromatic camera for not acknowledging color in the pictures it gives us.
What we consider to be supernatural is only that which we don't have a way to test scientifically. Magnetism was once considered supernatural before we understood it well enough to quantify it.

Also, people too often include things that have NOT been observed under the umbrella of Science, such as biogenesis and evolution, neither of which have ever been observed by anybody.
Like I said before, discussing the supernatural falls outside the scope of science... so why should they talk about God? At the end of the day, they present some evidence that X may cause Y because of Z data, and we are free to say "Ah, yes--as God created it to be."

For the benefit of our discussion: You say you aren't calling for religion and science to mix... but then you seem irritated that they aren't? Can you clarify your objections?
I can try and answer your question by asking this one: If God created the universe, should science be able to show that?

Objectively, the existence of God isn't a matter of religion. He either exists or He doesn't. Religion makes claims about His divine nature, His will and morality, which are not matters of science and thus, shouldn't mix. The Bible isn't a source of scientific information and shouldn't be used in scientific discussion.
"He who takes offense when no offense is intended is a fool, and he who takes offense when offense is intended is a greater fool."
—Brigham Young

"Don't take refuge in the false security of consensus."
—Christopher Hitchens


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