Baker forced to make cakes for gay couples

Got a question? We may have some answers!
Forum rules

1) This is a Christian site, respect our beliefs and we will respect yours.

2) This is a family friendly site, no swearing or posting offensive links, pictures, or signatures.

3) Please be respectful of others.

4) Trolls are not welcome and will be dealt with accordingly.

5) No racial comments, jokes or images

6) If you see a dead thread over 6 months old, let it rest in peace

7) No Duplicate posts
User avatar
ccgr
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 16354
Joined: Wed May 25, 2005 12:00 am
Are you human?: Yes!
Location: IL
Contact:

Baker forced to make cakes for gay couples

Postby ccgr » Wed Jun 04, 2014 2:54 am

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2014/06/ ... ing-after/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Sad. I thought business owners had a right to work or not. I get to decide which computer side jobs I do. As a web designer don't I have the right to turn down making a site for neo-nazis or some other activist group I do not wish to associate with?

User avatar
Deepfreeze32
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 7043
Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2006 12:00 am
Are you human?: Yes!
Location: On the run from Johnny Law; ain't no trip to Cleveland

Re: Baker forced to make cakes for gay couples

Postby Deepfreeze32 » Wed Jun 04, 2014 4:04 am

Well, what if they refused service based on someone's race?

The problem is that they stated /why/ they refused service. Imagine that scandal if they turned down an interracial couple, and cited religious freedom. (Please don't try to make this into an argument about whether or not the LGBT rights movement is like the civil rights movement. This is purely an example).

Businesses should absolutely be able to refuse service, but not because of prejudices that they express. If they truly have a problem, then they should use a different excuse. If it were me, I would have said something like "I'm sorry, I have too many contracts right now. There are other bakeries over here, though" and point them to bakeries that don't have a problem.


Maybe this is just me, but I fail to see how disagreeing with something always necessitates expressing that. There's being honest, but then there's being tactful.



Anyway, if this turns into a debate, I'm out. I have no desire to debate on the internet right now....

User avatar
Sstavix
CCGR addict
Posts: 2944
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2012 5:47 am
Are you human?: Yes!
Location: Eastern Washington. Not the crazy side.

Re: Baker forced to make cakes for gay couples

Postby Sstavix » Wed Jun 04, 2014 5:10 am

What bothers me is that people should have the right to refuse service to anyone. It could be due to religious reasons, or bigotry, or just because they smell funny. We have a right of free association in this nation.

Now I'm not saying that refusing to serve someone because of their race, religion or sexual orientation is right or moral, but we do have a fundamental right to do this. Just like we have a fundamental right to refuse to shop at a particular establishment because we don't like what the owner believes.

In my opinion, this bakery owner is being repressed by his own government for choosing to stand by his beliefs. He should close up shop and leave the State of Colorado. Maybe he can open up shop in a state a bit more willing to respect his beliefs and not strive to stifle individual rights.

User avatar
Wildebear
Regular Member
Regular Member
Posts: 112
Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2011 1:49 pm
Are you human?: Yes!
Location: South Africa

Re: Baker forced to make cakes for gay couples

Postby Wildebear » Wed Jun 04, 2014 8:49 am

Interesting opinions here:

“Conquer yourself rather than the world.”
― René Descartes

User avatar
ArcticFox
CCGR addict
Posts: 3475
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2007 12:00 am
Are you human?: Yes!
Contact:

Re: Baker forced to make cakes for gay couples

Postby ArcticFox » Wed Jun 04, 2014 12:48 pm

He didn't refuse to serve people... therefore he didn't discriminate. He refused to participate in an event.

Think It's splitting hairs? He never refused to sell a cake, cookies or anything else to a gay person. He just didn't want to be involved in an event that violated his conscience. He didn't discriminate against people. That's why this has ZILCH to to with civil rights. When that gay couple showed up to ask him to make their wedding cake he refused, but he recommended another bakery that would help them out.

We all understand the difference between a person and an event, right?

Image
"He who takes offense when no offense is intended is a fool, and he who takes offense when offense is intended is a greater fool."
—Brigham Young

"Don't take refuge in the false security of consensus."
—Christopher Hitchens

User avatar
ArchAngel
CCGR addict
Posts: 3547
Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 12:00 am
Location: San Jose, CA

Re: Baker forced to make cakes for gay couples

Postby ArchAngel » Wed Jun 04, 2014 4:39 pm

Well, every time a Fox News article is posted, you know you need more sources. Same goes with HuffPost.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/3 ... 20252.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nationa ... -1.1815868" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/01 ... il-rights/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (another case in oregon)
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/arc ... ys/284061/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I wouldn't say this has nothing to do with civil rights since it's an event. They are still very much involved. And it's easy to say any business owner can refuse service for whatever reason, but life is more complicated. What about the owner of a sole grocery store in a small town refuses to serve Christians? They could hardly live there if they wanted to openly practice their beliefs. Or, more likely,Expand small town to cities or states, and expand grocery store owner into entire communities and the problem still stands.
If they could oust any race, religion, sexual orientation, etc, they are deeply affecting other people's rights. Our rights are supposed to protect us from the government, but also from each other. This issue is far from cut and dry.

But Arctic did point out a pivotal difference. He wasn't refusing service to gay people, but to be part of a gay wedding. It's not a stark difference, there is an indirect discrimination even on those grounds, just as there is indirect religious rights to refuse to be part of a gay ceremony. But, something the HuffPost "failed" to mention is that he offered to make them anything else and has stated elsewhere he'd do birthday cakes for gays, etc.

Now, before I go further, if it hasn't been clear before, I think his position is reprehensible. It's regressive and immoral. And the fact that he'd claim moral superiority makes me a bit sick to the stomach. I find it disgusting. To clarify even further, I don't think he is reprehensible or disgusting and I think he genuinely thinks he's doing the right thing, but he's just really wrong and it's a shame.

That being said, and I'm no expert on anti-discrimination laws, but he should be within his rights and I'm not happy with the ruling he got, especially those, as one of the articles put it, Orwellian quarterly reports.
Pew Pew Pew. Science.

RoA: Kratimos/Lycan
UnHuman: Tim

blacksinow

Re: Baker forced to make cakes for gay couples

Postby blacksinow » Mon Jun 09, 2014 6:19 pm

I need to say one thing about Phil Robertson. If this was any other non-famous person, I doubt anyone would have cared about them being suspended or even fired for that matter. I read what he had said, and he could have phrased it to be alot cleaner. We shouldn't go excusing someone on the grounds of them being from the south or famous. Just because you say something, it doesn't exempt you from the consequinces, it only exempts you from being arrested for them (or atleast, until the gay rights people try to make illegal to speak out against homosexuality...). But I am more bothered at the obligatory nonsense of this tripe. When I see people speaking out against a wal-mart employee being suspended for the same thing, then I'll side with Phil Robertson. When I see some poor wal-mart employee who got suspended for the same thing get their own internet quote picture, then I'll side with him. When I see facebook posts flooded about that poor wal-mart employee being suspended for the same thing, then I will side with him. Really it could've been Kroger, FYE, etc, but Wal-Mart is still widely popular.

User avatar
Lazarus
CCGR addict
Posts: 2169
Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2006 12:00 am

Re: Baker forced to make cakes for gay couples

Postby Lazarus » Mon Jun 09, 2014 11:13 pm

Martin said the Alliance Defending Freedom will “continue to stand with Jack against overreach and tyranny by the state.”
“Jack has gone out on a limb and taken this stand – and not capitulated to the government’s demands,” she said. “That speaks volumes about him.”
And should the highest court in the land force Jack to do the bidding of homosexuals?
“There’s civil disobedience,” Phillips told me. “We’ll see what happens. I’m not giving up my faith. Too many people have died for this faith to give it up that easily.”
Meanwhile, the bullying tactics of the militant gay rights community have not hampered the bakery’s bottom line. They’ve gotten so much business from the sales of cookies and brownies, they’ve temporarily stopped making wedding cakes.
“Obey Christ rather than worry about what man can do to you,” Phillips said.
Pertinent quote from ccgr's article link.

The language being used here by the defendant bakery owner and his lawyer is very interesting. It's very violent.
"Overreach" "Tyranny" "Capitulation" "Force" "Died" "Bullying" "Militant"
all in just a couple paragraphs from the article.

This is incredibly inflammatory language to be using about a situation where the state is forcing a bakery to make cakes for homosexuals and anyone else who wants them. You find this sort of phrasing in articles about genocide and ethnic cleansing, not butter cream frosting!

It's also clearly a bid to gain the sympathy of the Christian community by invoking Christ and tying the bakery owner to the millions of Christian martyrs in days past. I'm not sure how they would feel about that but I imagine there's either tremendous hilarity going on up in heaven or slack-jawed disbelief.

When Jesus miraculously made all that bread and fish for the multitudes, did He tell Peter and Paul to make sure there were no homos getting any of it?

Whatever the state decides to do is out of any of our hands, but I'm incredibly amused that once again a Christian is behaving this way toward a person with a certain sexual orientation while having no problem serving atheists, Muslims, and Pastafarians. If you bake a cake for an atheist wedding aren't you endorsing their godless lives, after all, or better yet their mockery of marriage since God is the One who joins a man and woman together according to the Bible.

And yet there are zero headlines about atheists being turned away from bakeries and mounting massive lawsuits.

God is Love but Christianity is something else, man!

No offense intended, guys, I love all of you.
(No homo)

blacksinow

Re: Baker forced to make cakes for gay couples

Postby blacksinow » Tue Jun 10, 2014 12:33 am

Yes, Yes, a THOUSAND times YES to the poster above. See, this is what I'm talking about. If you are serving one ceremony that your beliefs do not support, why are you refusing another? Christians like the baker are a bit flimflamsy.

User avatar
Deepfreeze32
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 7043
Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2006 12:00 am
Are you human?: Yes!
Location: On the run from Johnny Law; ain't no trip to Cleveland

Re: Baker forced to make cakes for gay couples

Postby Deepfreeze32 » Tue Jun 10, 2014 7:28 am

God is Love but Christianity is something else, man!
True that...


Agreed with your post 1000+%.

User avatar
ArcticFox
CCGR addict
Posts: 3475
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2007 12:00 am
Are you human?: Yes!
Contact:

Re: Baker forced to make cakes for gay couples

Postby ArcticFox » Tue Jun 10, 2014 1:41 pm

Hey guys, how about trying to actually understand the issues here, rather than patting each other on the back for your righteousness? Laz's post demonstrates a very distinct lack of understanding of this matter, but you guys are lining up to offer congrats.

This is why I've given up arguing these things here.

I like you guys, but this is just too much.

When Jesus miraculously made all that bread and fish for the multitudes, did He tell Peter and Paul to make sure there were no homos getting any of it?
Broken analogy. Know what would happen if a man walked into that bakery and said "Hi, I'm gay and I want to buy a dozen cupcakes?" They would sell him a dozen cupcakes. Yes, the difference between refusing to service a person and refusing to service an event IS important.
Whatever the state decides to do is out of any of our hands, but I'm incredibly amused that once again a Christian is behaving this way toward a person with a certain sexual orientation while having no problem serving atheists, Muslims, and Pastafarians. If you bake a cake for an atheist wedding aren't you endorsing their godless lives, after all, or better yet their mockery of marriage since God is the One who joins a man and woman together according to the Bible.
This comment is proof that you don't understand the issues here. Why should he refuse to service an event for people of different religions? Do you not understand that the issue is about a moral objection to an event, and has nothing to do with the prospective customers' religion? Do you seriously think he'd have made a wedding cake for a gay marriage hosted by a Christian church that allowed that sort of thing? Baking a cake for an Atheist wedding isn't about endorsing Atheism. It's about participating in a marriage ceremony between a man and a woman.

That said, I'm out.
"He who takes offense when no offense is intended is a fool, and he who takes offense when offense is intended is a greater fool."
—Brigham Young

"Don't take refuge in the false security of consensus."
—Christopher Hitchens

itsakitten
Noob
Noob
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2014 10:31 pm

Re: Baker forced to make cakes for gay couples

Postby itsakitten » Tue Jun 10, 2014 10:57 pm

It sort of bothers me that this is even an issue. Maybe they don't agree with the couples' preference of partners, but frankly, they aren't being asked to do anything but make cupcakes, which is presumably their job. Is this really the time they picked to make their stand? Having religious views is respectable, but trying to force others to adhere is pretty nasty, especially when you're picking on a gay couple who just want to come to your establishment to buy things. This kind of behaviour seems to be one of the bigger reasons many people are falling away from the faith. It refuses to get with the times, and just keep out of the lives of others. This kind of bullying isn't helping when your religion is being involved in something as simple as filling an order for two people who care about each other. This sort of thing is extremely unchristian, and not very nice besides. In fifty years, people looking back will wonder what in the world was going on in our times,

Besides, are we really to picture this issue as the bakers' freedoms being curtailed here? That's obscene. There is no law that protects bigots if they decide to be bigoted, and there was no other good reason to refuse them service (even if they backhandedly came up with some other, more legitimate excuse, that's still why they would be refusing this couple and not the people behind them in line) and I don't think supporting this kind of behaviour is appropriate.

blacksinow

Re: Baker forced to make cakes for gay couples

Postby blacksinow » Wed Jun 11, 2014 4:01 am

He sounds right to me.

User avatar
ChickenSoup
CCGR addict
Posts: 3286
Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2005 12:00 am
Are you human?: Yes!
Location: the doomed ship HMS Sinkytowne

Re: Baker forced to make cakes for gay couples

Postby ChickenSoup » Wed Jun 11, 2014 4:25 am

This comment is proof that you don't understand the issues here. Why should he refuse to service an event for people of different religions? Do you not understand that the issue is about a moral objection to an event, and has nothing to do with the prospective customers' religion? Do you seriously think he'd have made a wedding cake for a gay marriage hosted by a Christian church that allowed that sort of thing? Baking a cake for an Atheist wedding isn't about endorsing Atheism. It's about participating in a marriage ceremony between a man and a woman.

That said, I'm out.
This comment is proof that you're getting fed up with people who disagree with you. :?
My name is ChickenSoup and I have several flavors in which you may be interested

I also have a slightly PG-13 tumblr that you may not enjoy

User avatar
Sstavix
CCGR addict
Posts: 2944
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2012 5:47 am
Are you human?: Yes!
Location: Eastern Washington. Not the crazy side.

Re: Baker forced to make cakes for gay couples

Postby Sstavix » Wed Jun 11, 2014 1:24 pm

There is no law that protects bigots if they decide to be bigoted....
Actually, there is. It's called the First Amendment, which (is supposed to) protect everyone's right to free speech. There's no law against being jailed for saying stupid things (with a few restrictions, but even then you'll see the occasional challenge in court based on First Amendment principles).
This comment is proof that you're getting fed up with people who disagree with you. :?
I've actually been there for years now. There's a reason why my main philosophy to life is "people are idiots." ArcticFox, there's more than enough room on my little island if you want to join me in my isolation. My wife and family have the hut over by the coconut trees, but there's room for another hut by the crab pots.


Return to “Spiritual Matters”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests

cron