Haha, yeah. Peter talks about the false prophets and teachers sayingSimilar to Calvinism, I find the notion of "once saved, always saved" to be not only counter-intuitive but illogical. A person retains their freewill even after having accepted Jesus Christ, which implies the possibility of rejecting their own salvation even after having "secured" it.
If this were not so, then there would be no need for a person to lead a righteous life after having accepted the Savior. They could simply return to whatever sinful live they'd lived before (or find all new sins) with no fear of losing their status in Heaven.
I've heard it said that if a person falls to sin after being "saved" then they never really got saved in the first place. That's circular logic and, as I said above, ignores freewill as a factor.
and earlier Peter speaks about "escaping the from those living in error""But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves."
"Bold and arrogant, they are not afraid to heap abuse on celestial beings; 11 yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not heap abuse on such beings when bringing judgment on them from[d] the Lord. 12 But these people blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like unreasoning animals, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like animals they too will perish.
13 They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you.[e] 14 With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed—an accursed brood! 15 They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Bezer,[f] who loved the wages of wickedness. 16 But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey—an animal without speech—who spoke with a human voice and restrained the prophet’s madness.
17 These people are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18 For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of the flesh, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19 They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for “people are slaves to whatever has mastered them.” 20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,”[g] and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”
So these people who were "barely escaping from those who live in error" were believers, who were entangled in sin and over come.3 His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4 Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.
Well, that is quite true, but we read Paul,That's an interesting story ArcticFox. It reminds me of how much God values humility. We always hear that God is love, but the more I think about what God did through Jesus, the great humility of being Creator and taking human form to be beaten, mocked, and crucified, points to the reality that God is also humility. It does not make sense that we could ever think of ourselves as superior for something that God does for us, so it does not make sense to have this kind of arrogant pride for being "saved".
Actually, Djents, another thing I hate about this question is "being saved" is a misnomer because technically this cannot happen until the eschaton. We are merely justified in the present moment, not saved.
but alternatively he says "For we are to God the pleasing aroma of Christ among those"he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of
his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and ... "
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves,
it is the gift of God ... God saved you by his grace when you believed. ... "
"made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in
transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved. ..."
"for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." ... ..."
This kind of reminds me of what God said in EzekielThere's a lot of danger in the idea that salvation cannot be lost, once attained.
I once had a brother in law (back when I had a sister) who had cheated on her but showed *no* remorse of any kind over his act of infidelity. When his wife was slow to forgive him, he tried the "I'm saved so you HAVE to forgive me, otherwise you're being influenced by the devil." approach.
Not surprisingly, that marriage didn't last long after that.
The problem here was that "being saved" was a source of pride to this man. I mean "pride" in the negative sense, where he believed himself somehow superior by virtue of his having been baptized, etc. Granted, he's somewhat an extreme example, but we are all subject to that kind of pride, and it can be very difficult to detect in ourselves. I know this from experience.
If I tell a righteous person that they will surely live, but then they trust in their righteousness and do evil, none of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered; they will die for the evil they have done.
While this is the popular understanding of Blaspheming the Holy Spirit, I beg to differ.Blaspheming the Spirit is not forgivable. In other words, if you have the Spirit and you reject how it compels you, you have rejected the Creator of life and salvation itself.
What the Pharisees did was call the Holy Spirit, the ultimate good, Beelzebub, the ultimate evil. This is a high handed sin, which is why it's not forgivable. It takes effort and courage and pride combined to do such a thing. And for a Christian to do such a thing would mean that he was on the road to destruction in the first place. Not that he wasn't saved, but that he was apostatizing. It's not some effortless thing to do, first the heart is hardened, to a point where there is hatred and malice, and lashes out against the Holy Spirit, or God, or Jesus, but the last two are forgivable. Blasphemy is not an action. Note what Jesus says "you will give account for every careless word" It talks about speaking "whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit" "Whoever speaks against the Son of Man"Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.
Thanks for pointing out that scripture, Djents. When I say this is a misnomer I referring to the sense of salvation as it's ultimate meaning at the eschaton. But, then there is room for us to think that we are "being saved" and even "are saved" especially with the category of "realized eschatology" (reborn, dying to our sins living to the Messiah, being in the Messiah, etc.).. . . used in direct comparison to "perishing" because we are still being saved, and are saved. But the main thing in hand that I am referring to, is turning away from God, it forfeits their future and present salvation.
I agree with you in so far as the issue of the "eternal sin" (Mark 3:29) may only be referring to those who rejected Jesus though they witnessed miracles such as the Pharisees. But, this also applies to us in some sense because if we reject the Holy Spirit, saying he is evil, then God will respect this.While this is the popular understanding of Blaspheming the Holy Spirit, I beg to differ.
Indeed.I would suggest that the concept of OSAS is not only wrong, it's un-biblical. Consider the parable of the sower that Jesus tells in Matthew 13. It is entirely possible that a person can accept the truth and the message of Jesus Christ, but later fall away due to various influences and circumstances.
You're only going to get it in in a parable, because that's how the Savior taught. As Sstavix already pointed out, Jesus taught this using a parable of the sower. If you understand the analogy Jesus uses in this parable, it's obvious that some hear the Gospel, grow in it, but then fall away.Show to me where in the Bible it says that we can lose salvation. Not through parables or proverbs that only a believer would understand, show to me, from the Bible, where it says clearly and plainly that we can lose salvation.
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