OSAS?

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Djents
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OSAS?

Postby Djents » Thu Apr 24, 2014 8:37 pm

Once saved, always saved was something I tried to believe, because I had heard it, and I wanted to hear it. But I couldn't keep a clear mind about it through reading all of the exhortations that Paul gives, and that Jesus gives. And reading about people who have "wandered away from the faith" and in 2 Peter when Peter talks about the false teachers and prophets who deceive "those barely escaping the corruption of the world" who "promise them freedom, but they are themselves slaves to corruption" and that those people who are deceived and entangled in sin and are over come are "worse off than they were before coming to a knowledge of the truth" and knowledge here in the Greek is "epignosis" which means "full discernment" or "acknowledgment" the same word used in Romans 1 when Paul says "and as they saw fit not to acknowledge (epignosis) God any more, he gave them over to a depraved mind". This isn't some general knowledge as in "gnosis" but full knowledge, as in knowing God as he truly is, and believing his truth.

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Re: OSAS?

Postby brandon1984 » Fri Apr 25, 2014 7:13 am

Blaspheming the Spirit is not forgivable. In other words, if you have the Spirit and you reject how it compels you, you have rejected the Creator of life and salvation itself. Once you have the Spirit this may be extremely difficult, you have to want to adopt the spirit of the world, but it's possible with excessive effort.

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Re: OSAS?

Postby ArcticFox » Fri Apr 25, 2014 6:51 pm

Similar to Calvinism, I find the notion of "once saved, always saved" to be not only counter-intuitive but illogical. A person retains their freewill even after having accepted Jesus Christ, which implies the possibility of rejecting their own salvation even after having "secured" it.

If this were not so, then there would be no need for a person to lead a righteous life after having accepted the Savior. They could simply return to whatever sinful live they'd lived before (or find all new sins) with no fear of losing their status in Heaven.

I've heard it said that if a person falls to sin after being "saved" then they never really got saved in the first place. That's circular logic and, as I said above, ignores freewill as a factor.
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Re: OSAS?

Postby Djents » Fri Apr 25, 2014 7:08 pm

Similar to Calvinism, I find the notion of "once saved, always saved" to be not only counter-intuitive but illogical. A person retains their freewill even after having accepted Jesus Christ, which implies the possibility of rejecting their own salvation even after having "secured" it.

If this were not so, then there would be no need for a person to lead a righteous life after having accepted the Savior. They could simply return to whatever sinful live they'd lived before (or find all new sins) with no fear of losing their status in Heaven.

I've heard it said that if a person falls to sin after being "saved" then they never really got saved in the first place. That's circular logic and, as I said above, ignores freewill as a factor.
Haha, yeah. Peter talks about the false prophets and teachers saying
"But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves."


"Bold and arrogant, they are not afraid to heap abuse on celestial beings; 11 yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not heap abuse on such beings when bringing judgment on them from[d] the Lord. 12 But these people blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like unreasoning animals, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like animals they too will perish.

13 They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you.[e] 14 With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed—an accursed brood! 15 They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Bezer,[f] who loved the wages of wickedness. 16 But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey—an animal without speech—who spoke with a human voice and restrained the prophet’s madness.

17 These people are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18 For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of the flesh, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19 They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for “people are slaves to whatever has mastered them.” 20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,”[g] and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”
and earlier Peter speaks about "escaping the from those living in error"
3 His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4 Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.
So these people who were "barely escaping from those who live in error" were believers, who were entangled in sin and over come.

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Re: OSAS?

Postby ArcticFox » Fri Apr 25, 2014 7:14 pm

There's a lot of danger in the idea that salvation cannot be lost, once attained.

I once had a brother in law (back when I had a sister) who had cheated on her but showed *no* remorse of any kind over his act of infidelity. When his wife was slow to forgive him, he tried the "I'm saved so you HAVE to forgive me, otherwise you're being influenced by the devil." approach.

Not surprisingly, that marriage didn't last long after that.

The problem here was that "being saved" was a source of pride to this man. I mean "pride" in the negative sense, where he believed himself somehow superior by virtue of his having been baptized, etc. Granted, he's somewhat an extreme example, but we are all subject to that kind of pride, and it can be very difficult to detect in ourselves. I know this from experience.
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Re: OSAS?

Postby brandon1984 » Fri Apr 25, 2014 10:46 pm

That's an interesting story ArcticFox. It reminds me of how much God values humility. We always hear that God is love, but the more I think about what God did through Jesus, the great humility of being Creator and taking human form to be beaten, mocked, and crucified, points to the reality that God is also humility. It does not make sense that we could ever think of ourselves as superior for something that God does for us, so it does not make sense to have this kind of arrogant pride for being "saved".

Actually, Djents, another thing I hate about this question is "being saved" is a misnomer because technically this cannot happen until the eschaton. We are merely justified in the present moment, not saved.

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Re: OSAS?

Postby Djents » Sat Apr 26, 2014 10:05 am

That's an interesting story ArcticFox. It reminds me of how much God values humility. We always hear that God is love, but the more I think about what God did through Jesus, the great humility of being Creator and taking human form to be beaten, mocked, and crucified, points to the reality that God is also humility. It does not make sense that we could ever think of ourselves as superior for something that God does for us, so it does not make sense to have this kind of arrogant pride for being "saved".

Actually, Djents, another thing I hate about this question is "being saved" is a misnomer because technically this cannot happen until the eschaton. We are merely justified in the present moment, not saved.
Well, that is quite true, but we read Paul,
"he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of
his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and ... "
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves,
it is the gift of God ... God saved you by his grace when you believed. ... "
"made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in
transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved. ..."
"for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." ... ..."
but alternatively he says "For we are to God the pleasing aroma of Christ among those
who are being saved and those who are perishing. ... " used in direct comparison to "perishing" because we are still being saved, and are saved. But the main thing in hand that I am referring to, is turning away from God, it forfeits their future and present salvation. "Be sure that none of you receives an evil, unbelieving heart, that turns away from the living God"

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Re: OSAS?

Postby Djents » Sat Apr 26, 2014 10:08 am

There's a lot of danger in the idea that salvation cannot be lost, once attained.

I once had a brother in law (back when I had a sister) who had cheated on her but showed *no* remorse of any kind over his act of infidelity. When his wife was slow to forgive him, he tried the "I'm saved so you HAVE to forgive me, otherwise you're being influenced by the devil." approach.

Not surprisingly, that marriage didn't last long after that.

The problem here was that "being saved" was a source of pride to this man. I mean "pride" in the negative sense, where he believed himself somehow superior by virtue of his having been baptized, etc. Granted, he's somewhat an extreme example, but we are all subject to that kind of pride, and it can be very difficult to detect in ourselves. I know this from experience.
This kind of reminds me of what God said in Ezekiel
If I tell a righteous person that they will surely live, but then they trust in their righteousness and do evil, none of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered; they will die for the evil they have done.

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Re: OSAS?

Postby Djents » Sat Apr 26, 2014 10:24 am

Blaspheming the Spirit is not forgivable. In other words, if you have the Spirit and you reject how it compels you, you have rejected the Creator of life and salvation itself.
While this is the popular understanding of Blaspheming the Holy Spirit, I beg to differ.
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.
What the Pharisees did was call the Holy Spirit, the ultimate good, Beelzebub, the ultimate evil. This is a high handed sin, which is why it's not forgivable. It takes effort and courage and pride combined to do such a thing. And for a Christian to do such a thing would mean that he was on the road to destruction in the first place. Not that he wasn't saved, but that he was apostatizing. It's not some effortless thing to do, first the heart is hardened, to a point where there is hatred and malice, and lashes out against the Holy Spirit, or God, or Jesus, but the last two are forgivable. Blasphemy is not an action. Note what Jesus says "you will give account for every careless word" It talks about speaking "whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit" "Whoever speaks against the Son of Man"

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Re: OSAS?

Postby brandon1984 » Sat Apr 26, 2014 6:17 pm

. . . used in direct comparison to "perishing" because we are still being saved, and are saved. But the main thing in hand that I am referring to, is turning away from God, it forfeits their future and present salvation.
Thanks for pointing out that scripture, Djents. When I say this is a misnomer I referring to the sense of salvation as it's ultimate meaning at the eschaton. But, then there is room for us to think that we are "being saved" and even "are saved" especially with the category of "realized eschatology" (reborn, dying to our sins living to the Messiah, being in the Messiah, etc.).
While this is the popular understanding of Blaspheming the Holy Spirit, I beg to differ.
I agree with you in so far as the issue of the "eternal sin" (Mark 3:29) may only be referring to those who rejected Jesus though they witnessed miracles such as the Pharisees. But, this also applies to us in some sense because if we reject the Holy Spirit, saying he is evil, then God will respect this.

The issue with OSAS and the eternal sin is the issue of reversibility. OSAS says that salvation (or justification), once attained, is irreversible whereas committing the "eternal sin" is irreversible as well. For the latter, it may be that once you truly and strongly believe that the Holy Spirit in you is evil and needs to be gotten rid of, you have basically reached a conviction that is incompatible with salvation which is so serious that Jesus implies that it is irreversible.

Now, honestly I don't know much about OSAS. It sounds, as ArcticFox pointed out, like an idea subject to abuse which makes me skeptical that it is true. But, I don't know. If someone wanted to argue for it, I would hear them but require an appropriate burden of proof.



EDIT: one word corrected

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Re: OSAS?

Postby Sstavix » Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:48 am

I would suggest that the concept of OSAS is not only wrong, it's un-biblical. Consider the parable of the sower that Jesus tells in Matthew 13. It is entirely possible that a person can accept the truth and the message of Jesus Christ, but later fall away due to various influences and circumstances.

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Re: OSAS?

Postby Djents » Tue Apr 29, 2014 3:24 am

I would suggest that the concept of OSAS is not only wrong, it's un-biblical. Consider the parable of the sower that Jesus tells in Matthew 13. It is entirely possible that a person can accept the truth and the message of Jesus Christ, but later fall away due to various influences and circumstances.
Indeed.

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Re: OSAS?

Postby RedPlums » Sun May 11, 2014 3:26 am

Now I'm probably going to be battered for saying this with only 3 years of experience in the Christian lifestyle, but I don't give a cow pie...

I find highly offensive that any of you would say that someone could lose salvation. If we could lose salvation that would mean God is not gracious. It means He is not gracious or loving enough to let us into His kingdom even though we sin and reject the Word. Thus that would mean that our God is not really a gracious, loving or merciful God, thus going against what the Bible says, which is God's own Word. So, if God say's He is gracious, loving and merciful in the Bible, but really isn't, that's contradictory and that would make God a liar. And we all know, our Heavenly Father, the only pure and righteous being in the world, CANNOT sin. At all.

Therefore, if we say that we can lose salvation we'd be calling God a liar and saying that the Bible is contradictory.

Show to me where in the Bible it says that we can lose salvation. Not through parables or proverbs that only a believer would understand, show to me, from the Bible, where it says clearly and plainly that we can lose salvation.

If God doesn't say that we can lose salvation, then we can't. Simple as that. However if God says we can lose salvation by rejecting Him, then would not the whole foundation of Christianity be crumbled and our faith in vain? Wouldn't every believer at some point, have lost their salvation?

I'm sorry, but I do not find these arguments valid in any form.

Thank you! :D
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Re: OSAS?

Postby ArcticFox » Sun May 11, 2014 11:28 am

Show to me where in the Bible it says that we can lose salvation. Not through parables or proverbs that only a believer would understand, show to me, from the Bible, where it says clearly and plainly that we can lose salvation.
You're only going to get it in in a parable, because that's how the Savior taught. As Sstavix already pointed out, Jesus taught this using a parable of the sower. If you understand the analogy Jesus uses in this parable, it's obvious that some hear the Gospel, grow in it, but then fall away.

I fail to see how this would somehow make Heavenly Father un-gracious or a liar. Grace is there for us, yes... But we have to not only choose to accept it, but also choose to keep it. A person doesn't lose the ability to reject the Gospel just because they've been baptized. Free will doesn't just go away.

Of course, a person could fall away but then later find their way back, as taught in the parable of the Prodigal Son. That's what Grace is.

The idea of OSAS is un-intuitive and un-biblical, from where I'm sitting. Perhaps you could point out where in the Bible it says a person cannot discard their salvation?
"He who takes offense when no offense is intended is a fool, and he who takes offense when offense is intended is a greater fool."
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"Don't take refuge in the false security of consensus."
—Christopher Hitchens

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Re: OSAS?

Postby RedPlums » Sun May 11, 2014 10:22 pm

It doesn't say in the Bible that you cannot lose salvation, I do admit to that. :)

However, salvation is a gift from God, and Romans 11 says that "The gifts of God are without repentance" Thus, they are irrevocable. God can't take anyone's sin away because he/she has rejected Him in his/her heart, that would be going against the Bible, and God can't contradict Himself.

Also, if someone get's to the point where he/she goes I don't believe in God, I don't believe Jesus Christ died on the cross for me, I reject Him completely, were they ever really saved in the first place? Could the Holy Spirit really be in a person like that? I have doubts.

Lastly, in the parable of the seeds the one that grows then withers quickly is like a person that reads the Bible, understands it and goes to church, but has not actually accepted Christ as his/her personal Savior, therefore he/she quickly loses any trust or faith in the Bible and in the church when he/she comes under spiritual attack.

Thank you! :)
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