That Moment (In Return of the Jedi)...

User avatar
ArcticFox
CCGR addict
Posts: 3485
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2007 7:00 pm
Are you human?: Yes!
Contact:

That Moment (In Return of the Jedi)...

Postby ArcticFox » Tue May 31, 2016 3:08 pm

... When you realize that Vader didn't deflect Luke's lightsaber strike to save the Emperor... He did it to save Luke's soul.
"He who takes offense when no offense is intended is a fool, and he who takes offense when offense is intended is a greater fool."
—Brigham Young

"Don't take refuge in the false security of consensus."
—Christopher Hitchens

User avatar
ccgr
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 17323
Joined: Tue May 24, 2005 7:00 pm
Are you human?: Yes!
Location: IL
Contact:

Re: That Moment (In Return of the Jedi)...

Postby ccgr » Fri Jun 03, 2016 8:15 am

Still better then the prequels and recent films :)

User avatar
ArcticFox
CCGR addict
Posts: 3485
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2007 7:00 pm
Are you human?: Yes!
Contact:

Re: That Moment (In Return of the Jedi)...

Postby ArcticFox » Fri Jun 03, 2016 9:57 am

Still better then the prequels and recent films :)
Far, far better.

Actually that sequence in RotJ is probably my favorite in all of Star Wars. The lighsaber duel between Luke and Vader was incredibly complex and deep. Much more engaging than the impressively choreographed but emotionally vapid lightsaber fights in the prequels.

At the end of The Empire Strikes Back, Vader tried to coax Luke into joining him and overthrowing the Emperor. It seems contradictory that Vader later stops Luke from striking the Emperor down. It makes perfect sense though, when you consider that earlier in this movie Vader seemed to be struggling as Luke awakened the good in him by trying to draw him out and calling him "Father" to his face.

So when the Emperor is taunting Luke, he says "I am unarmed. Use your Jedi weapon. Strike me down and your journey toward the Dark Side will be complete." A few moments later, Luke attempts to do exactly that. Had his blow landed, he would have fallen to the Dark Side and Vader would have gotten what he had previously wanted. Vader had seemingly no motive at all to try and prevent this.

But he did. His love for his son. He couldn't let Luke fall this way. Of course, he hadn't fully switched back to the Light yet, and he continues to provoke Luke himself, now trying to direct Luke's rage toward him. I always felt like he was buying time. He couldn't allow Luke to kill him, because that would send Luke over to the Dark Side just as surely as killing the Emperor would have, but at the same time he couldn't bring himself to kill Luke. So what to do? Keep Luke fighting him, rely on his own superior swordsmanship, and buy time to figure out a solution. Maybe even hold out until the Rebels Got through and destroyed the Death Star itself. Luke would die, but at least he'd die as a Jedi.

But he underestimated Luke's fury, and was pushed back and ultimately was nearly killed before Luke caught himself and realized what he had almost done. This culminates with his killing the Emperor at the cost of his own life, this saving his son, body and soul. As my son put it when I shared this thought with him: "Dad saves MVP 1983."
"He who takes offense when no offense is intended is a fool, and he who takes offense when offense is intended is a greater fool."
—Brigham Young

"Don't take refuge in the false security of consensus."
—Christopher Hitchens

User avatar
TheBlueBulbear
Noob
Noob
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri May 27, 2016 3:51 pm

Re: That Moment (In Return of the Jedi)...

Postby TheBlueBulbear » Fri Jun 03, 2016 2:44 pm

Much more engaging than the impressively choreographed but emotionally vapid lightsaber fights in the prequels.
Can you honestly tell me that the fight between Obi-Wan and Anakin in Revenge of the Sith isn't the most emotionally intense duel in the entire Star Wars series?

I'm a huge fan of the prequels so I'll defend them to the death lol

User avatar
ArcticFox
CCGR addict
Posts: 3485
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2007 7:00 pm
Are you human?: Yes!
Contact:

Re: That Moment (In Return of the Jedi)...

Postby ArcticFox » Fri Jun 03, 2016 2:48 pm

Can you honestly tell me that the fight between Obi-Wan and Anakin in Revenge of the Sith isn't the most emotionally intense duel in the entire Star Wars series?

I'm a huge fan of the prequels so I'll defend them to the death lol
It was more emotional than the other duels in the prequels, but it didn't need to be so incredibly long. By the time it was over we just feel numb.
"He who takes offense when no offense is intended is a fool, and he who takes offense when offense is intended is a greater fool."
—Brigham Young

"Don't take refuge in the false security of consensus."
—Christopher Hitchens

User avatar
TheBlueBulbear
Noob
Noob
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri May 27, 2016 3:51 pm

Re: That Moment (In Return of the Jedi)...

Postby TheBlueBulbear » Fri Jun 03, 2016 2:55 pm

It was more emotional than the other duels in the prequels, but it didn't need to be so incredibly long. By the time it was over we just feel numb.
It's still better than any of the duels in the original trilogy imo. The music in the prequels was also much better in the fight sequences, especially Duel of the Fates in Phantom Menace and Battle of Heroes in Revenge of the Sith.

User avatar
ArcticFox
CCGR addict
Posts: 3485
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2007 7:00 pm
Are you human?: Yes!
Contact:

Re: That Moment (In Return of the Jedi)...

Postby ArcticFox » Fri Jun 03, 2016 3:12 pm

It's still better than any of the duels in the original trilogy imo. The music in the prequels was also much better in the fight sequences, especially Duel of the Fates in Phantom Menace and Battle of Heroes in Revenge of the Sith.
Maybe it's a generation thing but this is where we disagree. The duel music was cool in those two fights, but it was also mostly the same.

The problem is that those duels are mostly about as emotionally engaging as a WWE fight. In Phantom Menace you have Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan against Maul and yeah, it's eye candy to watch the cool choreography but ultimately it's not very emotionally engaging. Qui-Gon isn't a very interesting character and we already know Obi-Wan survives, so there's little investment. It isn't even like the movie was building to this. It just sort of happens out of nowhere. The two Jedi open a door and there's Maul standing there. *yawn*

The one between Obi-Wan and Anakin in RotS had a little bit more emotion, but there again we already know how it'll end so it's just a matter of waiting for it to get to it. Did we really need these guys swinging from cables over a lava river? Sure it looked cool, but didn't enhance the fight and if the duel had been 5 minutes long it would have been just as emotional without becoming boring from running too long.

Contrast with Luke v. Vader in RotJ. There's a LOT going on. Vader is trying to bait Luke, using the Force to discover the existence of a sister and pressing Luke's berserk button by threatening her. After that the duel goes from Luke fighting on the defensive to an all out rage attack against Vader, with enough fury to drive him back despite his being a superior swordsman. It isn't about choreography, it's about emotion. The entire movie had been building to this confrontation between them.

Even the fight between Luke and Vader in Empire Strikes Back. Notice the color palette. At the start of the fight in the carbonite chamber notice the wash of red and blues. Notice how the colors in the environment change as the dynamic of the fight between the two develops. Notice also how Luke holds his lightsaber with both hands the whole time, fighting as hard as he can while Vader just toys with him, wielding his saber one handed sometimes. Again, this confrontation has been building up through the movie and we're invested.

The prequels are just showing off SFX. That isn't emotion.
"He who takes offense when no offense is intended is a fool, and he who takes offense when offense is intended is a greater fool."
—Brigham Young

"Don't take refuge in the false security of consensus."
—Christopher Hitchens

User avatar
TheBlueBulbear
Noob
Noob
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri May 27, 2016 3:51 pm

Re: That Moment (In Return of the Jedi)...

Postby TheBlueBulbear » Fri Jun 03, 2016 3:46 pm

It's not even a generation thing, I just have a weird liking of the prequel movies. I'm starting to get where the hate for them comes from but I don't agree with it.

I understand your points about the fights lacking with emotion, and for the Maul fight I can see it. What I think makes Maul such a cool villain, though, is how much he's lacking in emotion. He barely speaks throughout the entire movie, and when he does it's pretty minimal. He's just a figure that represents the larger evil going on behind the scenes, what with Sidious pulling the strings throughout most of the prequels.

I'm not trying to say that the Vader and Luke fight in Return of the Jedi doesn't have a lot going on, because it certainly does. But remember that the Anakin and Obi-Wan fight in Revenge of the Sith had a lot building up to it as well, what with Anakin believing he was betrayed by his former mentor and such and ultimately lashing out in anger against Padme.

User avatar
ArcticFox
CCGR addict
Posts: 3485
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2007 7:00 pm
Are you human?: Yes!
Contact:

Re: That Moment (In Return of the Jedi)...

Postby ArcticFox » Sat Jun 04, 2016 8:29 am

But remember that the Anakin and Obi-Wan fight in Revenge of the Sith had a lot building up to it as well, what with Anakin believing he was betrayed by his former mentor and such and ultimately lashing out in anger against Padme.
Oh yeah you're right about that, certainly. It's probably the part from the prequels I liked best. I also think Hayden Christiansen gets too much hate for his acting. He conveys emotion with his face very well. He's not so good with lines, but he is very good at expression.

Overall I am dissatisfied with the prequels but it's not my mission to talk anyone else out of loving them. If you love them, watch those puppies 'till the DVDs wear out and let us agree that Star Wars just rocks. :D

In the meantime, it's super fun to debate as well. I guess that's another reason to love Star Wars. There's so much rich material that we can debate and discuss whatever we want!
"He who takes offense when no offense is intended is a fool, and he who takes offense when offense is intended is a greater fool."
—Brigham Young

"Don't take refuge in the false security of consensus."
—Christopher Hitchens

User avatar
TheBlueBulbear
Noob
Noob
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri May 27, 2016 3:51 pm

Re: That Moment (In Return of the Jedi)...

Postby TheBlueBulbear » Sat Jun 04, 2016 11:26 pm

Oh I absolutely agree! Star Wars rocks and I like all of the movies, although I have to say that I was a bit disappointed with The Force Awakens... A lot of it just felt like stuff we've seen before. I love the new characters and some of the worlds they created, but the story as a whole just didn't work as well as I was hoping. Still excited for episode VIII, though.

User avatar
ArcticFox
CCGR addict
Posts: 3485
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2007 7:00 pm
Are you human?: Yes!
Contact:

Re: That Moment (In Return of the Jedi)...

Postby ArcticFox » Mon Jun 06, 2016 10:44 am

Yeah Force Awakens did feel like a remake of A New Hope in many places. I think that was deliberate, though.

Like the prequels or not, I think on some level the filmmakers wanted to show the audience that they understood what Star Wars should be and were able to deliver. I didn't mind the frequent callbacks to the original trilogy since they didn't feel like a distraction, but I can understand why someone might. It was a safe route to be sure, but understandable IMHO.


And did you also notice that the very first spoken line in The Force Awakens was "This will begin to make things right." That was a message to the audience from the filmmakers.

I have a feeling the next two movies will rely on the previous films far less.
"He who takes offense when no offense is intended is a fool, and he who takes offense when offense is intended is a greater fool."
—Brigham Young

"Don't take refuge in the false security of consensus."
—Christopher Hitchens

User avatar
Partyninja
Regular Member
Regular Member
Posts: 96
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:36 pm
Are you human?: Yes!

Re: That Moment (In Return of the Jedi)...

Postby Partyninja » Mon Jun 06, 2016 2:53 pm

... When you realize that Vader didn't deflect Luke's lightsaber strike to save the Emperor... He did it to save Luke's soul.
Dang man!
Image
Image

Image

Don't Judge me I love bleach!


Return to “Movies”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests