Self-abuse

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GarthVader
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Re: Self-abuse

Postby GarthVader » Tue Jun 28, 2011 12:13 am

It just comes down to this for me: I cannot say whether or not the specific ACTION is sinful, but I DO believe that it cannot be done without sinning. Does that make any sense?
IF it's impossible to do without having sinful thoughts, then I agree with you, it shouldn't be done. I'm just not so sure that it is, for many people for sure but maybe there are also people with enough self-control.

I also agree with you that you can't say "I can't stop myself from having sinful thoughts, but maybe if I keep working on it I'll eventually get there so I'll just keep doing it until I maybe get it right some day". That seems wrong.

What's the purpose of masturbating? Yes, maybe relief of stress, it's also a sleep-inducer for men (doesn't work that way for women), and it feels pretty good.
IF it IS possible to do without sinful thoughts, then since the Bible does not explicitly condemn it, I could not say whether or not it is wrong. I just don't think it is possible. Either way, I guess we could agree that in 90% of situations, it is probably wrong. So it's probably something to be avoided, yes?

Yeah, there are always "pros" to everything. I've even heard people giving reasons why pornography could be a good thing, even healthy. I call that bull. In this case, I don't know, I guess. ("Feels pretty good," wouldn't that be sexually?)
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Re: Self-abuse

Postby ChickenSoup » Tue Jun 28, 2011 6:18 am

What's the purpose of masturbating? Yes, maybe relief of stress, it's also a sleep-inducer for men (doesn't work that way for women), and it feels pretty good.
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Re: Self-abuse

Postby ArchAngel » Tue Jul 12, 2011 8:06 pm

I'm with Harvester on this one.

In the words of an old Pastor of mine, Things that the Bible are black and white on, be black and white on; things the Bible is gray on, be gray on.

The Bible never does address masturbation and for good reason, I believe. It's really not that important.
Garth, you say that masturbation ruined lives, but as far as I've seen, it just lowered chances for prostate cancer.
At most, pornography and sexual additions have ruined lives, but masturbation is mostly harmless and at most it offends some people's sensibilities.
I don't think it's right to guilt someone over it, since the Bible never clearly or actually condemns it.

However, if you believe it is wrong, and you have stated you did, it would be wrong for you. Don't do it and I'm not going to try to convince you it's fine. That would be wrong of me.
The bible clearly states not to go against one's own conscience and I don't want to be a stumbling block to you. I might have already crossed the line in that respect, but I wanted to stress that since Bible never makes a statement on it, there is no real good position to take in telling other's it's wrong outside of explaining your position, but please, follow your own convictions. This matter is between you and God, and no one else.
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Re: Self-abuse

Postby GarthVader » Tue Jul 12, 2011 10:27 pm

I'm with Harvester on this one.

In the words of an old Pastor of mine, Things that the Bible are black and white on, be black and white on; things the Bible is gray on, be gray on.

The Bible never does address masturbation and for good reason, I believe. It's really not that important.
Garth, you say that masturbation ruined lives, but as far as I've seen, it just lowered chances for prostate cancer.
At most, pornography and sexual additions have ruined lives, but masturbation is mostly harmless and at most it offends some people's sensibilities.
I don't think it's right to guilt someone over it, since the Bible never clearly or actually condemns it.

However, if you believe it is wrong, and you have stated you did, it would be wrong for you. Don't do it and I'm not going to try to convince you it's fine. That would be wrong of me.
The bible clearly states not to go against one's own conscience and I don't want to be a stumbling block to you. I might have already crossed the line in that respect, but I wanted to stress that since Bible never makes a statement on it, there is no real good position to take in telling other's it's wrong outside of explaining your position, but please, follow your own convictions. This matter is between you and God, and no one else.
Hmmm.... maybe. Nothing can be both right and wrong, but I suppose something could be neither wrong nor right.

Well, see, here's my issue. I agree that the Bible does not say anything concerning this, therefore it can't be "forbidden." (Also, I want to point out that I have NEVER 'guilted' anyone on this) I cannot say that the actual "act" is sinful, because I have no way of knowing that, and am therefore not condemning it.

All I am saying is that I believe it goes hand in hand with lust, which obviously IS wrong. Even if that is not one's intent, it seems that it would cause a greater likelihood of having impure or lustful thoughts. Wouldn't it be best to stay away from something like that?

I will never tell someone that I think it is an okay thing to do, but neither will I say: "Oh gosh, I you're gonna go to hell now! O_O"

Again, the physical act may not be sinful, I just don't think it can be done innocently. Make sense?
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Re: Self-abuse

Postby ArchAngel » Tue Jul 12, 2011 10:57 pm

Sure, I've heard this argument before and it's one of the more sounder argument.
We can go into what lusting really means, but I'd prefer not to and leave that between a person and God.
And even if they go hand in hand, which I would argue they don't necessarily, just highly correlated, the sin would lusting and not masturbation.

Now, masturbation can be done without fantasizing or lusting, and done merely for the pleasure of the act.
And secondly, here's a scenario: What if a man is gone on a business trip and masturbates, fantasizing about his own wife (or a soldier on tour, etc)?
This would not be wrong, would it? (this is beginning to get a little mature for some of the readers, I'm willing to tone this back)


And Garth, I didn't mean to accuse you of guilting or condemning others, and I apologize if you took it that way.
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Re: Self-abuse

Postby GarthVader » Wed Jul 13, 2011 12:48 am

Right, and I don't want to complicate this too much. Plus, that is what I am saying. Lusting is the sin, I cannot say the same for the act.

See, you say that, but I just don't see how it's possible. If it is, then like I said before, I can't condemn it.

Well, I don't know about that scenario. Besides it being utterly gross (in my opinion), I wouldn't be able to say if that is sinful or not, so therefore I would withhold judgment (hopefully because I don't know about it! XD) I guess I'll say that I cannot definitively say "Oh, gosh, that is so wrong!" but I also wouldn't say, "Eh, it's fine." I guess I'm a bit ambiguous there.

No no, that's alright. I should apologize, really. I get very defensive sometimes. :oops: You're good. :)
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Re: Self-abuse

Postby Chozon1 » Wed Jul 13, 2011 12:56 am

I think I'll give the same message here that I do to the "suicide is OK" people:

Have fun with that.
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Re: Self-abuse

Postby GarthVader » Wed Jul 13, 2011 5:31 pm

I think I'll give the same message here that I do to the "suicide is OK" people:

Have fun with that.
Or this. XD
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Re: Self-abuse

Postby Harvester » Wed Jul 13, 2011 10:49 pm

However, if you believe it is wrong, and you have stated you did, it would be wrong for you. Don't do it and I'm not going to try to convince you it's fine. That would be wrong of me.
The bible clearly states not to go against one's own conscience and I don't want to be a stumbling block to you. I might have already crossed the line in that respect, but I wanted to stress that since Bible never makes a statement on it, there is no real good position to take in telling other's it's wrong outside of explaining your position, but please, follow your own convictions. This matter is between you and God, and no one else.
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Re: Self-abuse

Postby ArchAngel » Wed Jul 13, 2011 11:29 pm

I think I'll give the same message here that I do to the "suicide is OK" people:

Have fun with that.
Lol, that's generally the point.
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Re: Self-abuse

Postby Chozon1 » Thu Jul 14, 2011 5:06 am

See? Now you've just taken a perfectly good, mildly-veiled insult and done that with it.

*huff*
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Re: Self-abuse

Postby ArchAngel » Thu Jul 14, 2011 4:40 pm

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Re: Self-abuse

Postby Truthseeker » Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:31 pm

This has been an interesting conversation to read.
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Re: Self-abuse

Postby ChickenSoup » Wed Jul 20, 2011 6:19 pm

Refeshingly so, in fact
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Re: Self-abuse

Postby Bruce_Campbell » Mon Aug 15, 2011 5:21 pm

What if a man is gone on a business trip and masturbates, fantasizing about his own wife (or a soldier on tour, etc)?
I'm all for supporting the troops, but that's a bit excessive methinks.

I'm not going to get into the sinful thoughts and whatnot, because as I'm not a Christian I have different ideas than a lot of you. I will say that I don't like the way sex is thrown in our face constantly in our culture, and I'm not talking about porn. But if you think about it, I'm sure people masturbated before porn existed (or was as easy to access as it was now). I don't think occasionally masturbating is wrong or unhealthy, and MOST people do it whether they admit it or not. I mean, think of it as a release valve. I do think that with all the sex we get pushed on us through the media, advertising, etc. people have a tendency to go overboard with it and are more likely to do it chronically.

EDIT: And I just booted an almost month-old topic. I really am getting rusty.
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