RPGs? Why?

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Rejera
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Recently I saw an Article about a game called Bravely: The Second. It's a sequal to Bravely default for the 3ds, and it got me wondering. Why do people like Turn-based, JRPGs? There are only a couple turn-based RPGs that I would consider "Good." Dragon quest 9, because you gathered a bunch of powers, making you feel like an epic hero, and you could play the whole story with friends. Chrono Trigger, as the multiple endings were fun. And the Persona games. The persona games feel like a visual novel/ time management game mixed with an rpg. Oh, And I can't forget Pokemon. Again, only talking about turn-based ones here. I love Action RPGs and other games with RPG elements. But, throughout most other RPGs, I end up getting the feeling of "Hurry up with this gameplay. I want to experience the story, not this." And that seems to be missing the point of playing a game. If I wanted a good story, I'd read a book. The book doesn't have grindy pointless gameplay. So, I want to know, what aspect of Turn-based RPGs do YOU like? And why? What's your favorite RPG? Do you dislike Turnbased RPG's or do you love them to death?
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ccgr
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I enjoyed Bravely Default, just wasn't a fan of the repetitiveness. The character development and battle system were fun though. If the sequel comes to our shores I'll be checking it out.
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I do tend to like role-playing games, especially turn-based ones. However, not like the Japanese ones, which I find often lack a certain tactical aspect. While the JRPGs do have their own style, I do prefer ones where you have more control over your characters and their position on the battlefield, and the opponents likewise have their positions.

A lot like you may see in tabletop role-playing games, actually. These were more prevalent in the earlier years of computer gaming (see the old SSI games, like Pool of Radiance, or most of the early Ultima games). Lately, it seems like the only games that still maintain this format would be the games that Spiderweb Software makes (although Sproggiwood, which I recently reviewed, meshes this idea into a nice "RPG-Lite" approach).

But that's the tactical side of things. The main thing that tends to drive a role-playing game is the story. Some games are able to meld the tactical portions of the game and the story well. Others don't do so well (e.g. grinding. Lots of grinding. Lots and lots and lots of grinding). I've played some games that had such a good story I was moved to tears. Others I couldn't get into and never bothered to finish because I never felt a bond with the characters or the settings - I didn't finish the game because I just didn't care.

And that's one thing that playing a game can do that reading a book or watching a movie can't do. It's the immersive experience. Other media allow you to perceive the action from the outside. Games allow you to be part of the action. They allow you to not only see the world that these characters are in - you are controlling the world. You are controlling the heroes. And, in a sense, you share in their successes and mourn their losses alongside them, an invisible party to their pain and joy.

That could apply to almost any genre of game, though. What makes RPGs tend to stand out is the emphasis on the story. If story matters little to you, then by all means, go play a FPS or a puzzle or strategy game. If you prefer the story aspects, you'll need to look more into role-playing games and adventure games.

At least those are my thoughts on it! Role-playing games do tend to be my favorite genre, mainly because of the longevity and the ability for the creator to tell a story and allow the players to be a part of it. Others may have their own reasons, of course.
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I think Sstavix hit on a big difference between western RPGs and jRPGs and why they aren't the same genre at all. We play them for different reasons.

Western RPGs are all about building the character YOU want to build and playing him or her through a world or story. This often gets expressed via character creation, classes, combat styles, open-world mechanics, etc.

jRPGs do not shine in this regard at all, but the focus is rather for you to play through a story. Combat is often, out of my own bias, dull and tedious, and you are given a character who is largely set with his or her own backstory. In this regard, I really don't care for jRPGs very much. But, these constraints can lend itself to get the writing more freedom to craft a story.

These differences in aesthetics also go back to their history. Western RPGs largely spring up from table top and paper and pencil gaming and the similarities are still largely apparent. jRPGs come from visual novels and such.

These guys explain it really well:



Along with really interesting talk on genres and core-play aesthetics.
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I've got to say, I love extra credits. They take analyzing a game to an amazing level, and I think that is beyond fun. I guess that is an aspect of why RPG's are fun. You interact with the world. You shape it. I extremely enjoy a good story in a videogame. That's one of the reasons why I like the kingdom hearts games, is for the story. It's just, whenever I play a game like Final Fantasy 7, I think to myself "Why do people like this so much?" Cloud isn't relate-able at all. You aren't given a reason to care about him or most of the cast. The combat was grindy and I just didn't feel compelled to play through the game. I look at games with RPG experiences (Great story, leveling up, getting better equipment and such) and can't think why I would want to go back to a turn-based RPG. If it IS a turnbased RPG, then they better bring something along with it that makes the game fun. Like the collect'em all stuff with Pokemon, or the different things you can do in Persona. I know this is personal taste, but for me, navigating a menu to click the attack action, then clicking on a character, isn't really that fun for me. I can totally understand tactical RPGs like Fire emblem. (though those aren't really for me because I'm not that good at them.) But the typical Final fantasy-like games( Turn based combat, pre-defined characters, linear story...) I just don't see the appeal. I'd even rather have the games be a visual novel without the tedious grinding.

Edit: Also wanted to say that the last episode hit the point I was talking about. JRPG's are about narrative. If you don't enjoy the narrative, then you don't enjoy the game. I guess that's why I like games with RPG elements, like action RPGs or something like that.(The gameplay can help support the game if the narrative is just ok) I guess that's why I still slug through games like Persona. The story is just that good and you get an emotional connection with the characters themselves (although Persona DOES have a lot of self-expression in it as well. Just another thought.) I guess that's why I liked kingdom Hearts so much. It combined fun gameplay with an awesome (in my opinion) story.
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If you are up for trying out a different experience with a turn=based RPG, feel free to check out Spiderweb Software's Web site. The games - especially the Avernum saga - do have a great setting and a fun story. Also, character development is entirely in your hands - you can come up with whatever backstory you want for your characters, or none at all, if you prefer.

Best of all, the demos there are free. :) Can't beat that! The games also are available on Steam, if that's your platform of choice.
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I actually like the combat in Turn based RPGs, though I suppose it depends on how good the combat is, and how much of it.

Yeah I am one of those who really like Final Fantasy 7, it may not have the most relatable characters, but it's quite the fantasy.
(one with great music, a neat skill system, a huge world with a good amount of side-quests, and a wonderfully challenging secret boss.)
Maybe you would like Final Fantasy 7: Crisis Core, it's an Action RPG and the main character is Zack Fair.
(Okay okay, enough fanboying over FF7. XD )

I do also love turn-based Tactical RPGs,
with Fire Emblem: Blazing Sword being my favorite. (I mean I played through the whole thing around 15 times. XD)
I also like the Final Fantasy Tactics series. (I love the skill and class system of those games.)


Oh, and to go with what Sstavix is saying, I do know some great Turn-base RPGs with a twist.
The first two Paper Mario games, they play a lot like a normal turn-base RPG, but it has an slight action RPG element.
You don't just select the attack, you also preform it. (Not to mention you can also try to defend yourself when it's the enemy's turn to attack.)
Out of the two Paper Mario games though, Thousand Year Door would have to be my favorite. (I also love the stage element they add to the battles.)
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Rejera
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JOJ650s wrote: Oh, and to go with what Sstavix is saying, I do know some great Turn-base RPGs with a twist.
The first two Paper Mario games, they play a lot like a normal turn-base RPG, but it has an slight action RPG element.
You don't just select the attack, you also preform it. (Not to mention you can also try to defend yourself when it's the enemy's turn to attack.)
Out of the two Paper Mario games though, Thousand Year Door would have to be my favorite. (I also love the stage element they add to the battles.)
I love the paper mario games. They have always been a fun series for me (except sticker star... I can explain further if needed... That game should have never been made in my opinion.)

As for Crisis Core, I've heard that is a great game, but I've also heard that you should play FF7 before that one.
Spoiler:
Doesn't Zack die or something? Is that why they said to play FF7, so that you that ahead of time?
Like I was saying, I can see how tactical RPG's can be fun (I've had some fun myself with Fire Emblem: Awakening) but those aren't my game of choice, as I'm not too good at them (Yet I refuse to play on casual in FE: Awakening... I must hate myself :D) But, Just goes to show my tendencies with games. If it has a lot of hype/everyone loved it. I'm pretty sure I won't really see it. I think that's perfectly fine that you enjoy FF7. I guess what killed it was I was 4 hours in and them lost my save data... yeah, that'll do it for an RPG for me. I might have to look into it again. You know, after persona 4 golden. I think it'll be a while :)

I guess I now understand why I like certain RPGs. They have to have a level of challenge to them that isn't "Click attack button, watch enemy life go down.) Like paper mario, pokemon, persona and chronotrigger. Thanks everyone for giving your thoughts. It's been fun to discover the reason why I like certain RPGs. Keep posting your thoughts if anything comes to mind.

Also, briefly looked at the avernum games. I'll have to look into those further. Thanks for the recommendation.
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JOJ650s
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Ah, yeah I can definitely see how loosing data can kill the desire to continue/start over. :o

Though yeah, about Crisis Core... I actually ended up playing that one before Final Fantasy 7. XD
With it being a prequel, there isn't really any downsides to playing it first.
(I suppose there is a plot twist in FF7 it would affect, but I wouldn't say it affects it in a bad way, it may have actually made it even more intriguing.)

Yeah I have heard Sticker Star wasn't very good. (Though I suppose on the bright side, I can buy it used for super cheap when I decide to get it. XD)
Hopefully the next Paper Mario will take after the gameplay of the Thousand Year Door game.
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ccgr
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Sticker Star was cute, just not as good as the others
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Rejera
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ccgr wrote:Sticker Star was cute, just not as good as the others
I found sticker star to be utterly disappointing to me. A couple personal preferences, and a couple mechanics that I think were utterly broken. (I'm taking this as an excuse to explain as I believe it is relevant to why I enjoy RPGs. :lol: )

I'm not saying that you shouldn't have enjoyed sticker star, or that you are wrong for enjoying it. I'm merely stating my opinion on the game. (just for clarification.)

My explanation is kinda long, so I figured I'd put it under a spoiler tag just so that the post looks better. There aren't actually any spoilers.

TL:DR version. : I didn't like that there wasn't a leveling system in place, I didn't really like the sticker combat (but that is a minor complaint which I could have gotten over.) and I didn't like that they split it up into little levels. For further explanation, see below.
Spoiler:
The big annoyance that takes the cake, HAS to be the leveling system, or lack there of. There is no experience gained from battling enemies. 1st, this strips the game from having any level of progression. You never feel like you are getting more and more powerful (Which is a MUST in RPGs in my opinion.) It makes it so that there isn't anything to look forward to. This is all you get. Secondly, pointlessness. At least when you were getting experience in previous games of the series, you received something from battling the enemies. In fact, in previous games, I went out of my way to fight the random battles because I knew it was worth it in the long run. Stripping the experience system from the game made any battle except the boss battles, pointless. They are simply padding to make the game longer now. They are something that wastes your time. You could argue that "Hey, at least you get stickers and coins" but, they made those plentiful outside the battlefield. I often had too many stickers to count when I earned them from battles, mostly because I had found a bunch before hand wandering around the level. This killed my enjoyment of the game. I have never disliked a Nintendo game before, and I'm sad to say that this was my first.

Now, onto the more personal little nitpicks. These added onto the huge point above to make this a less then enjoyable experience. But, these are pretty small in my opinion. The first one that comes to mind is the sticker system itself. My mentality whenever playing a game is to conserve the powerful attacks until the important battles. The ones where you can only use it once. I'm a little obsessive about that. This game was a nightmare for that. Each sticker you could only use once, but the kicker was the "special" stickers. The ones that you know you could only use once in the entire game. This was torture. I didn't know if I could use the special for this boss battle, or if I should save it for the next boss battle. Lastly, were the segmented levels. One of my favorite aspects of the paper mario series is that you could travel anywhere, and that there was an expansive world to explore. Sticker star got rid of that and replaced it with "Mobile friendly" levels. Personally, I'd rather have save blocks everywhere than have the game segmented into levels. Just doesn't seem right for an RPG. It kills the exploration experience that you find in any other RPG.
/end rant
well, there you have it. Why I believe Sticker star was horrible. Let me know what you think about these mechanics. Did you enjoy the sticker mechanics?
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ccgr
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I don't remember the particulars since it's been 2 years since i have played it, my memories are positive but it's not a game I plan on replaying anytime soon if ever. I can say that when I was done with it, my kids took turns playing it on their 3DS' so we got our money's worth :)
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JOJ650s
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Wow, I didn't know how different it was.
Yeah, no leveling would make normal battles really pointless.

I also agree with you on the one time use stuff, I also pretty much never end up using one time use items in games.
Which is probably why the developers of pokemon changed how TMs work and made it so that they can be used infinitely, rather than just one time.

They also split the game into segmented levels?
Wow, this is pretty much the same thing that happened to the Mario & Luigi RPG series.
The first game Superstar Saga had a neat open world and had that feel of exploration,
then I played the second game which had super linear segmented areas... there wasn't really any reason to play the game after beating it.
I hear though that the newest game Dream Team went back to having an open world. (I think I'll give it a go.)
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