Any1 know a good rpg game?

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Re: Any1 know a good rpg game?

Postby ArchAngel » Tue Jun 05, 2012 11:04 pm

Whenever someone talks about developer laziness, I get the profound sense they have no idea what goes on in development. It's not like a bunch of software engineers are kicking their feet on the desk shrugging their shoulders, not wanting to bother with the new list of enhancements. If anything, if left to themselves, they'd keep on adding more and the game will never release.
These massive projects have timelines, schedules and budgets and it's a sad truth of development that features need to be cut. A lot. And the less the project managers see ahead, the more needs to be cut. And the longer a project waits, the more money gets spent for a product that is making 0 dollars. Turns out, publishers/investors don't like spending millions of dollars and not making money back.

I'm not excusing a buggy or barebones projects being released, but the reasons are complex why it happens. These projects are incredible undertakings and it takes a finely tuned team to come out with functional games, and it's nearly impossible to come out with all the features developed and bugs fixed.

But yeah, go ahead and tell the developer that's putting in 80 hour weeks over the last 6 months to get the game out that he's lazy. I mean, he just sits down all day, right?
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Re: Any1 know a good rpg game?

Postby jester747 » Tue Jun 05, 2012 11:07 pm

Valid point is valid.
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Re: Any1 know a good rpg game?

Postby Deepfreeze32 » Tue Jun 05, 2012 11:52 pm

As someone who is actually making an RPG...Arch makes an excellent point. Game Developer forums are often filled with tails of indie developers never releasing a game because obsessive programmers keep adding features. As an obsessive programmer, I admit that I am guilty of this. And unfortunately, there is nothing I can do right now to actually get to work on my game, since my desktop will be out of commission until me and my housemates decide on an ISP...

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Re: Any1 know a good rpg game?

Postby Drewsov » Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:03 am

For the record, I disagree with almost all of sinow's points.

My comment about "laziness" had to do with lack of climbable ladders (which, come on, you know?) and the bad QA department.

I totally respect the vastness of Skyrim's world and complexity in the game. I really do.

(And also, having done some minor programming work myself [we've talked about this, Deep], I feel like I have the barest glimmer of understanding of the complexity of coding, especially if done by hand.)
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Re: Any1 know a good rpg game?

Postby ArchAngel » Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:05 am

I didn't know you were into game dev, Deep. You should consider participating in the annual CDN speedgame competition coming up this month. 2 weeks of smashing development; it's really fun.

And tell your housemates to get the fastest one and be on with it.


Duly noted, Drew.
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Re: Any1 know a good rpg game?

Postby blacksinow » Wed Jun 06, 2012 2:08 am

Whenever someone talks about developer laziness, I get the profound sense they have no idea what goes on in development. It's not like a bunch of software engineers are kicking their feet on the desk shrugging their shoulders, not wanting to bother with the new list of enhancements. If anything, if left to themselves, they'd keep on adding more and the game will never release.
These massive projects have timelines, schedules and budgets and it's a sad truth of development that features need to be cut. A lot. And the less the project managers see ahead, the more needs to be cut. And the longer a project waits, the more money gets spent for a product that is making 0 dollars. Turns out, publishers/investors don't like spending millions of dollars and not making money back.

I'm not excusing a buggy or barebones projects being released, but the reasons are complex why it happens. These projects are incredible undertakings and it takes a finely tuned team to come out with functional games, and it's nearly impossible to come out with all the features developed and bugs fixed.

But yeah, go ahead and tell the developer that's putting in 80 hour weeks over the last 6 months to get the game out that he's lazy. I mean, he just sits down all day, right?
I am not talking about just accusing them of being lazy. Bethesda (like Obsidian) have these bad habbits. And there ARE problems with the map, it isn't just a "oh sinow is lying..." kinda deal. They could have made the map more useful, but they didn't. You know what I loved about Oblivion? It's map, it was useful, it did what it was supposed to... Obsidian improved upon it with Fallout New Vegas.

And we can say "They work all day and night and program real hard...." But in the same respect, we can say that about the programmers for World of Warcraft, Guild Wars 1, Anarchy Online...

Some companies can actually get it right, Bethesda isn't one of them. It's easy to accept any kind of game, and say it is good. I'm sure the .05% of the population who love ET for Atari will defend Atari to the end for making a great game. But you have realize that some of the major game companies ARE getting lazier. I don't know if it's the economy, low budgeting or what, but something is causing a decline in progress for these companies.

And by the way, if I knew they could do so much better and haven't, you bet I would call them lazy.

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Re: Any1 know a good rpg game?

Postby ChickenSoup » Wed Jun 06, 2012 4:18 am

Bethesda, and specifically Todd Howard (the main developer at the studio), seem enrapt with the quixotic notion that they are at the top of the heap in the industry, based on sales and reviews that ignore substantial flaws and issues with their games.
Probably because some reviewers--myself included--look past tech issues and pay attention to whether or not a game is fun and enjoyable. :P Crippling glitches aside (And really, there were a few that cost me several hours of hard work and left me stranded and unable to do anything but reload and redo the incredibly complex quest) Morrowind is likely my favorite game ever. :D
My issue is more that it felt like work after 20-some hours, and I do enough of that anyway.
Who cares about the writing when you're charging a demon with a magic sword you personally crafted in your hand? It's not supposed to be a heart breaking mythos tale, it's supposed to be a fantasy realm that's fun to play in. I can live with that, since for the most part, it succeeds. Not, mind you, that I'm excusing the glitches and quirks that should've been ground out by even a substandard testing team. I understand what you're saying, I just ignore it and play the game. :D
Some people can't do that all the time.

I'm one of those people.
Also, for the record, when I said 'console' I meant 'console commands' on the PC. You can usually unbreak whatever weird glitch has broked using it. That's why "I never play a Bethesda game on a console", because it doesn't have one.
For the record, I know what "console" means when you're referring to a PC. I'm around computers all day long, I troubleshoot tech for a living, give me the benefit of the doubt, yeah?

I mean, I know I have a reputation around here for only playing console games, but I actually do own a fair number of PC games. I'm dualbooting Windows 7 with Mac on a i7 processor. I have to know a bit.
Also, there's a mod for Skyrim that turns your dragon shouts into farts. You can't tell me that's not awesome. XD
No.

That's worse than orange soda.
I honestly liked the combat system. It was basic, simple and fit well with the point of the game, and the point of the game is immersion.

I get that not everybody will like or even understand the game. RPG's have become an incredibly broad category as of late and people play different rpg games for different reasons. A jRPG gamer goes in with vastly different expectations and desires than someone loading up Diablo. And you know this.
And Skyrim isn't the best combat rpg around and if you judge it by that, of course you'd dislike the game, especially with all the hype around it.
What it is is an amazing role-playing game; the depth of immersion is better than just about any other game I've played. While the combat is simplistic enough to enhance the immersion; it doesn't feel like the game is playing it for you. I've quite enjoyed the combat in this context, and I know I'm not alone in this. Perhaps I had a better experience since I was on a PC, though.

And about technical issues, there were a good amount on launch, but nothing I found rehabilitating. I've seen worse. Maybe you speak overly strong to bring a point across, but sometimes I wonder if you're playing an entirely different game.
It isn't especially the combat that bothers me, though I wish I could for example heal myself without putting my weapons away. It isn't even the unbalanced enemies (why are trolls and giants so much more difficult to kill than dragons?).

And it's not that I don't understand the game. I do. I dropped twenty-someodd hours into it.

The problem is that it felt like work. I had to talk myself into playing it, over and over again. It got to the point where I just set it aside and didn't think about it, because I wanted to play other games more, and dreaded the thought of playing Skyrim. And I don't know why, except that when I loaded it up, it seemed tedious.

The problem wasn't immersion. The game's world is magnificent. The problem may have been that the method of conveying quests - the quest log or journal - seemed itemized, a list of chores. Exploring the world and uncovering new places is a wondrous thing, and it's not like I haven't had experience with these types of games before. I put a similar amount of time into Oblivion before hanging my hat up, put a solid 85 hours into Fallout 3 and around 40 into New Vegas (which I actually adored... even wrote an article about it here: http://bombadillo.net/?p=249).

And substantially, those games weren't different than Skyrim.

So maybe I changed as a gamer, or maybe something was off with Skyrim. Dunno.
Image
Some companies can actually get it right, Bethesda isn't one of them. It's easy to accept any kind of game, and say it is good. I'm sure the .05% of the population who love ET for Atari will defend Atari to the end for making a great game. But you have realize that some of the major game companies ARE getting lazier. I don't know if it's the economy, low budgeting or what, but something is causing a decline in progress for these companies.
You do realize that Skyrim was almost universally praised, right? We're not talking about a game like ET with .05% approval rating. I don't even care that you or Drew disliked Skyrim--I disagree, yeah, but I adore Skyrim and we're all welcome to our own opinions--it's just that your points aren't the best.

EDIT: I do not lump in Drew with the "your points" comment
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Re: Any1 know a good rpg game?

Postby ArchAngel » Wed Jun 06, 2012 5:06 am

Blacksinow, I'm not saying you're lying, I'm saying you're wrong.
Lazy is still such an unequivocally incorrect word to use.
Chalking up the results growing complexity of modern projects straight to laziness is just... wrong.
Slamming a critically lauded game and a developer who has a substantial track record of putting out hit after hit is just... wrong.
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Re: Any1 know a good rpg game?

Postby Drewsov » Wed Jun 06, 2012 5:33 am

Image
YOU KNOW WHAT SOUP

Whenever someone talks about developer laziness, I get the profound sense they have no idea what goes on in development. It's not like a bunch of software engineers are kicking their feet on the desk shrugging their shoulders, not wanting to bother with the new list of enhancements. If anything, if left to themselves, they'd keep on adding more and the game will never release.
These massive projects have timelines, schedules and budgets and it's a sad truth of development that features need to be cut. A lot. And the less the project managers see ahead, the more needs to be cut. And the longer a project waits, the more money gets spent for a product that is making 0 dollars. Turns out, publishers/investors don't like spending millions of dollars and not making money back.

I'm not excusing a buggy or barebones projects being released, but the reasons are complex why it happens. These projects are incredible undertakings and it takes a finely tuned team to come out with functional games, and it's nearly impossible to come out with all the features developed and bugs fixed.

But yeah, go ahead and tell the developer that's putting in 80 hour weeks over the last 6 months to get the game out that he's lazy. I mean, he just sits down all day, right?
I am not talking about just accusing them of being lazy. Bethesda (like Obsidian) have these bad habbits. And there ARE problems with the map, it isn't just a "oh sinow is lying..." kinda deal. They could have made the map more useful, but they didn't. You know what I loved about Oblivion? It's map, it was useful, it did what it was supposed to... Obsidian improved upon it with Fallout New Vegas.

And we can say "They work all day and night and program real hard...." But in the same respect, we can say that about the programmers for World of Warcraft, Guild Wars 1, Anarchy Online...

Some companies can actually get it right, Bethesda isn't one of them. It's easy to accept any kind of game, and say it is good. I'm sure the .05% of the population who love ET for Atari will defend Atari to the end for making a great game. But you have realize that some of the major game companies ARE getting lazier. I don't know if it's the economy, low budgeting or what, but something is causing a decline in progress for these companies.

And by the way, if I knew they could do so much better and haven't, you bet I would call them lazy.
First of all, you got edited. And whoever did the editing missed a couple things. So there's that.

Second of all, once again, I totally disagree with your "points"; there's nothing functionally wrong with the map in Skyrim. In fact, it's an impressive thing. I was wowed when I saw it first. I was wowed for so much of that game, it's not even funny. My dislike boils down to what I've discussed previously, and even that is evaporating as I post in this thread.

Am I going to buy it again? ...Probably not.
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Re: Any1 know a good rpg game?

Postby CountKrazy » Sat Jun 09, 2012 6:42 am

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Re: Any1 know a good rpg game?

Postby fathom123 » Wed Jun 13, 2012 6:10 pm

I'm deeply saddened that no one mentioned Neverwinter Nights 1 or 2.

I played 1 and loved it. I own two and just about every expansion (I say just about because they released a NWN2 pack with a special new expansion just for buying the pack. I own every expansion then they had to go do that. Honestly I'm tempted to buy the pack with all of the expansions and have two of everything just for the new expansion).

I'm about to show my nerd hand. It's based in the world of Dungeons and Dragons (3.5 edition specifically). It's a one player game (though online play allows for others to join your quests) and has a super rich storyline. You can customize the garbage out of your character. You can select the choices you make which have influence on how your party interacts with you and how your future plays out. If you want to be good, then good it up, if you want to be evil, then evil it up. It makes the replayability so much fun. Plus there's an easy to use cheat console if you get bored and want to go godmode on everyone. Then, for you developer types, there's a construction pack that comes with it so you can make your own expansions. Pretty epic.

Any how, I love D&D and this is a super cool game to check out if you are the same.
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Re: Any1 know a good rpg game?

Postby Deepfreeze32 » Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:21 pm

See, I love NWN. I just cannot for the life of me get it to run on my ultra-modern system. XD

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Re: Any1 know a good rpg game?

Postby fathom123 » Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:03 pm

That's why it's all about having a retro gaming unit alongside your current gaming PC.

Granted I have neither. I need a gaming computer so bad. We're getting by month to month at the moment, so perhaps Christmas or perhaps the Lord will open a door for a sweet gaming rig to be given to me randomly.

The one I use now is a laptop. It works for what I need it to do but missing the awesome power needed to run games on high settings.
Jeremiah 20:9-But if I say, "I will not mention him or speak any more in his name," his word is in my heart like a fire, a fire shut up in my bones. I am weary of holding it in; indeed, I cannot.

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Re: Any1 know a good rpg game?

Postby ArchAngel » Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:56 pm

If you have the technical prowess for putting together a PC, my wife and I just put together a gaming PC for her (and faster than mine, too) for under $500. There are some good deals that come around. Not pocket change, of course, but it's a lot easier to save for than an alienware. (Forgive me if this was your plan all along)
If not, check out ProGress Systems. It's owned by our very own CCGR and she gives a lot of bang for the buck on the systems.


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Re: Any1 know a good rpg game?

Postby fathom123 » Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:42 pm

Sweet, I'll check it out. Keep us in prayer, i might be getting a raise here soon and that would allow us to be able to pursue such awesomeness.
Jeremiah 20:9-But if I say, "I will not mention him or speak any more in his name," his word is in my heart like a fire, a fire shut up in my bones. I am weary of holding it in; indeed, I cannot.


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