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Moral Issues Facing The Church

Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:41 pm
by ccgr ... ues-rh.pdf" onclick=";return false;


1. Willfully terminating a pregnancy
2. Views on the value of life and when it begins
3. a. unwanted pregnancy b. rape c. abnormalities
4. If the mother's life is in danger
5. How sacred is life? Do they support killing off the elderly if they are an inconvenience?

The father names their child
No, they are called children
Treated him like a person, not a parasite
With child
When she was a virgin
In his mother's womb

2. The bible considers unborn babies humans from the moment of conception. The are treated the same before and after birth.

3. The spirit

4. We are created in God's image

5. Worth enough to die for

1. We can educate that babies are not just "tissue" in the womb. I would show them an ultrasound, and offer to assist in cost of raising the child
2. Avoid premarital sex
3. We shouldn't tolerate this sin, but we should show compassion for the sinners
4. I am against convenience abortions, especially late term ones. It's a horrific practice. With that being said there are always exceptions and it should be considered in the most gravest of circumstances.

Re: Moral Issues Facing The Church

Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 5:06 pm
by fathom123
1. Abortion is the horrifying act of ending human life before it's born.
2. I think that the key difference is that pro choice advocates see an undeveloped baby as a mass of tissue. They refuse to accept the being as human. They see it like we would see an appendix that has become infected.
3. A) Fear of the unknown.
B) Inconvenience.
C) The baby doesn't fit into their plans.
4.An undeveloped fetus is treated as tissue and this tissue should not "legally" have a hold on a woman's decision to have it removed at her will. The tissue is not a child, it's just a cluster of cells.
5. Where is the line? As soon as the baby is born? So it's ok to justify killing a baby 10 minutes before delivery? If no, then 10 days? 10 weeks? Where is the line when a bunch a "fetal tissue" becomes a person who has the right to live?

A) The father names the child (Stole CCGR's answer, I was confused until I read what you wrote). As such, the father in naming the child declares the purpose of the child at it's birth. In essence, by doing so, he defines the very nature of the child through the name. For example, my son is named Victor Steven Gaspard. The definition of his name is one crowned in victory and glory. Our last name, Gaspard, is one of the names of the 3 wise men and also means artist. A name is very important to defining who a person is.
B)There is no distinction. In fact, the Lord goes so far as to refer to those in her womb as "Nations." This implies that he is speaking to the future of those who are yet to be born.
C)No. Job did not have control over whether or not he could have been born.
D)He goes further to refer to him as a profit. This scripture implies that we have purpose in existing before we are born.
E)God's anger burned against the sons of Gillead because they aborted the babies of the women in order to enlarge their borders.
F)Mary was with "child" at the point of conception.
G)In her womb.

2. As stated in the scriptures mentioned, the bible clearly defines that life and purpose begin at conception, not at birth.
3.They don't believe that man is imbued with a spirit upon conception. Since it's a secularist mindset often those who are pro choice have no view of God and thus they do not recognize the reality that a conceived fetus has a spirit.
4. The spirit that is in us.
5.God considers human life so important that it's worth suffering for and dying for regardless of what it may mean in terms of convenience.

A)What can we do to stop it? When it's time to vote, then vote pro choice. Actively get involved with and/or donate to pro choice groups.
B) Explain the potential in what it is that they have inside of them. So many children have been born as unwanted pregnancies and have done amazing things with their lives. Even if it means putting the child up for adoption. I know many people who are adopted and have amazing personalities and character and grow up in loving homes.

2. Avoid premarital sex and take responsibility for the consequences of any actions. If you get pregnant, it's not the baby's fault, so why does it lose the opportunity to exist?

3. I have a firm stance. If it comes to a discussion I am passionate about it. I'm a father and I see first hand the beauty that comes from a child. If a child is denied the right to exist, then that beauty has no opportunity to expressed in this world. If I encounter someone who is considering an abortion, then I approach with love and understanding and explain why it's important to allow that child to live. If I encounter someone who has had an abortion, I love them and explain why they should never do it again. Not for the purpose of shaming them, but so they can understand. This is all based on the pretense that I have a relationship or am able to speak into the lives of these individuals.

4. Before I became a parent, I was against abortion but I didn't really have a passion for it until I met my son who is now my whole world. I'm now utterly disgusted at the idea that these perfect creatures are denied life because of fear or inconvenience. There are alternatives that exist and should be considered before ending that child's life. Sex is viewed in our society as a play thing that carries no weight of responsibility. Sex, as it was intended to be, is a gift that is to be experienced by two people who are committed to each other and are committed to what may become of their intimacy.

Re: Moral Issues Facing The Church

Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 7:38 am
by Chozon1
I'm so sorry I'm two weeks cousin was spending the week over and life has been incredibly hard lately. I apologize. I'd like to still be in this.


1) The killing of an unborn child.

2) Probably the recognition of humanity. It's...unborn child vs. lump of tissue.


a. Women have sovereignty choice over their own bodies.
b. Sometimes it's healthier for the mother.
c. If the child was the result of a rape, the mother shouldn't have to bear the burden.

4) Probably that the mother shouldn't have to bear the baby in the case of rape, or that if the mother's life is in danger, the child should be killed instead.

5) I don't know. What other pop-culture issues are they standing on?


1) The bible seems to say that life was planned by God before it started in the womb, so life begins before the child is born.

2) No, he doesn't. A lot; God plans our lives out before we are even born.

3) The humanity of the child; their very alive and very human essence.

4) We are made in the image of God.

5) So important that He gave His own Son for us.


1) We can protest its legality, but I think we can also offer a helping hand in love...raising a kid, or so I am told, is not easy. I 'spose I would tell them...God loved them, and that children are a gift, and a living, breathing human it would be wrong to harm.

2) Logically, the best way to avoid being tempted to abort a baby is by avoiding getting pregnant. The best way to avoid that is by not having sex. So...that'd probably be a good place to start.

3) One of horror and weeping.

4) Not really...



1) No. If you know abuse is actively happening, you should try and stop it.

2) Children, I imagine. The amount of betrayal there is hideous.

3) It can be verbal or physical. Probably even spiritual and mental.

4) I 'spose whenever someone is willing to ignore what is right and do what they want abuse can happen.

5) Being self-centered and being without God.

6) I don't know. Perhaps that...they didn't feel bad until afterward, or that they couldn't control themselves?

7) That people are, without God, evil.


1) God called it murder, if I understand the question.

2) He punishes the one who commits the crime.


a) If we repent of our sins, God will forgive us, and we will have no reason to feel guilty.

b) Selfish people often get angry when others don't serve them. They need to learn humility.

c) Being quick to anger is a sign of weakness. We are told to be self controlled because, without that, we're just sort of running in circles and beating the air.

d) Brutality is a sign of weakness, and often fear; the principles we can use to guide our lives are self control, humility, love, and placing others above ourselves.

e) I think that, when in doubt, we are to respond by placing others above ourself? When in doubt, show love?

Re: Moral Issues Facing The Church

Posted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 4:41 pm
by fathom123
Part 2: Abuse

Preliminary Thoughts
1. According to James 5:19-20 and Galatians 6:1 it's a good thing that as a part of the body we are to guide others away from sin. This would include if a brother is mistreating his family in a clearly abusive way.

2. I would assume the victim of the abuse would be the one to suffer the most from the abuse. I would think that next would be any children of the victim would be a close second.

3. There are several forms of abuse and often they overlap. They are physical, emotional, verbal, sexual, even financial. I would say that anything that exists in a form that can be managed with wisdom and love and have an opposing side which considered abusive.

4. Abuse can happen when we forsake the influence of the Lord in our lives. When our relationship with Him takes a back seat and flesh is allowed to rule.

5.They knew God but didn't live or operate according to His will or way of things. Their hearts were darkened and they were handed over to their depraved mind since they refused to change.

-The victim deserved what they had coming to them.
-Respect through fear is acknowledged as something necessary in order to feel important as the head of the household.
-Substances like alcohol and drugs made them do it.
-It's justifiable because it is the culmination of stress and other overwhelming circumstances.

7. There is a very real force of pure evil. The devil and his fallen angels are out influencing others in the way of sin.

What does the bible say?

1. If you do well, your conscious is clear. If you do evil then sin (as a powerful and deliberate force) is waiting for that opportunity to gain a foothold an rule your life.

2.Because of violence, the Lord will work against and destroy violent men.


a. Guilt
-Hebrews: The Lord remembers my sin no more, so why should I?
-Acts 2:38, 22:16: In the act of repentance (empowered by baptism) enables our sins to be forgiven and the Spirit of God to enter our lives.
-If I confess my sins, the Lord is faithful to forgive them. I shouldn't hang onto guilt.

b. Selfishness
-Selfishness is only a part of the corruption that will lead a man to abuse those who are closest to him.
-This person will respond as any worldly person does, they will do what it takes to gain what they want at whatever cost to others so long as they are comfortable.
-Philippians: In order to not become this person, the Word is clear that you must be selfless and humble.

c. Lack of Control
-Often a conquest is something that is achieved through physical force of action. Greater than the conquest of things physical is the conquest of things that are unseen. This would be your character and behavior. Someone showing restraint reveals that they have conquered many difficult obstacles inside their own self (by the grace of God of course). These obstacles take years of refinement that can't be shaped by a simple outburst of physical brutality. All of this to say, a lack of self control and the ability to handle things by force is not a sign of strength compared to those with self control.
-It demands self control because it is one of the key things outlined in 2 Peter that is a requirement to operate in the Kingdom of God. Also, just like an athlete, Corinthians explains that self control is necessary for we as believers to function in order to gain our prize.

d. Brutality
-Brutality, as mentioned before regarding self control, is a sign of weakness.
-Matthew: Treat others as you would like to be treated.
-Colossians: We who are chosen of God should operate in compassion, kindness, holiness, gentleness, patience, bearing with one another, and forgiving one another.
-Philippians: Live selflessly regarding others more highly than we regard ourselves.

e. Ignorance
-Ephesians 5:22-33: Wives regard husbands as the head of the house and husbands care for wives as Christ cares for his church.
-Ephesians 6:22-Fathers do not provoke your children to anger, instead bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord.
-Colossians: Wives submit to husbands, husbands do not become bitter with your wife but instead love them, children be obedient to parents and parents do not anger and irritate your children.

Practical Solutions

1. Titus: Older women are to be a role model and example for younger women so they will love their husbands and set a most positive example.

-1 Corinthians: Abuse is the absolute opposite of love.
-Philippians: Live selflessly and regard others.

-Philippians: It's possible to live apart from an abusive life through Jesus the Christ.
-1 Corinthians: What you are experiencing is of the sin nature and nothing that is done out of the sin nature is foreign to any man. Every person is capable of doing what you did but the Lord has always allowed us an outlet or an escape from these temptations.

-Psalms: The Lord will destroy the wicked man. He will work against him in every avenue of life.
-Galatians: The abuser will become corrupted.

My mother was abused by my father when I was very young. I was even abused as a baby. I am grateful to the Lord for the life I am living now. I see how my father's choices have effected him and where his choices have led him today. I don't know the man but I know his life would have been significantly better had he followed the Lord and walked in His ways instead of abusing the one's he was closest to. My father's actions have cost me greatly. I forgive him and continue to forgive him and hope that the Lord will grab his life and transform him.

Re: Moral Issues Facing The Church

Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 1:14 pm
by ccgr
part 2 Abuse

1. No if we are aware of a problem we must intervene
2. The defenseless, children and women
3. physical, emotional, substance, sexual
4. By denying God's power to change us.
5. Ignoring Godly wisdom, Selfishness
6. The other person deserved it or they justify it some other way
7. Sin.

if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
Unfortunately Cain, didn't listen and slew Abel.
2. It grieves Him. God won't tolerate it.
Guilt: Open up about it, confess our sin to God
Selfishness: Abusers think only of themselves. Abusers will ignore those who do not benefit them. They need to learn to consider others.
Lack of control: No a quick temper is a sign of weakness. God is patient with us we should be the same with others.
Brutality: Weakness. A strong person has willing followers.We are to be humble and selfless.
Ignorance: Submit and listen to family, nurture them

Practical Solutions:
1. Mentor younger women
2. Love is selfless
3. Lead them to Christ
4. Besides losing their loved ones they'll get judged on earth and in heaven
5. My heart goes out to the abused and many don't open up about it, if someone does, listen and help them, don't ignore it!

Re: Moral Issues Facing The Church

Posted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 8:52 am
by Chozon1

1) No. If you know abuse is actively happening, you should try and stop it.

2) Children, I imagine. The amount of betrayal there is hideous.

3) It can be verbal or physical. Probably even spiritual and mental.

4) I 'spose whenever someone is willing to ignore what is right and do what they want abuse can happen.

5) Being self-centered and being without God.

6) I don't know. Perhaps that...they didn't feel bad until afterward, or that they couldn't control themselves?

7) That people are, without God, evil.


1) God called it murder, if I understand the question.

2) He punishes the one who commits the crime.


a) If we repent of our sins, God will forgive us, and we will have no reason to feel guilty.

b) Selfish people often get angry when others don't serve them. They need to learn humility.

c) Being quick to anger is a sign of weakness. We are told to be self controlled because, without that, we're just sort of running in circles and beating the air.

d) Brutality is a sign of weakness, and often fear; the principles we can use to guide our lives are self control, humility, love, and placing others above ourselves.

e) I think that, when in doubt, we are to respond by placing others above ourself? When in doubt, show love?


1) Maybe by leading by example?

2) That true love is patient, kind, and gentle; it's placing the well-being and happiness of someone else above your own.

3) Point them to God to pray to Him. He will help them.

4) You will be swept away and reap what you sow.

5) Again, not really.

Re: Moral Issues Facing The Church

Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 2:43 pm
by ccgr

Preliminary Thoughts
1. Line/square dancing, ballroom dancing
2. You see dancing in all kinds of movies and TV shows

being godly more important than exercise
pleasure can be sin
wide is the path to sin
what does it do to your heart?
adultery starts in the mind

4. Weddings
5. Good point

What does the Bible say?

1. There are dances of rejoicing praise and lustful. Most modern dancing falls under the lust category.

2. las·civ·i·ous [luh-siv-ee-uhs]
inclined to lustfulness; wanton; lewd: a lascivious, girl-chasing old man.
arousing sexual desire: lascivious photographs.
indicating sexual interest or expressive of lust or lewdness: a lascivious gesture.

3. li·cen·tious [lahy-sen-shuhs]
sexually unrestrained; lascivious; libertine; lewd.
unrestrained by law or general morality; lawless; immoral.
going beyond customary or proper bounds or limits; disregarding rules.

4. lewd [lood]
adjective, lewd·er, lewd·est.
inclined to, characterized by, or inciting to lust or lechery; lascivious.
obscene or indecent, as language or songs; salacious.
Obsolete .
low, ignorant, or vulgar.
base, vile, or wicked, especially of a person.
bad, worthless, or poor, especially of a thing.

5. rev·el·ry [rev-uhl-ree]
noun, plural rev·el·ries.
reveling; boisterous festivity: Their revelry could be heard across the river.

6. wan·ton [won-tn]
done, shown, used, etc., maliciously or unjustifiably: a wanton attack; wanton cruelty.
deliberate and without motive or provocation; uncalled-for; headstrong; willful: Why jeopardize your career in such a wanton way?
without regard for what is right, just, humane, etc.; careless; reckless: a wanton attacker of religious convictions.
sexually lawless or unrestrained; loose; lascivious; lewd: wanton behavior.
extravagantly or excessively luxurious, as a person, manner of living, or style.

Those words are used to describe sinful behavior and practices.

7. Many modern dances are very sexual and fits into many of those definitions

8. The sexualization

9. It seems to get worse but the intent has always been there

10. Both since one caused the other to stumble

11. I guess not

12. Don't do it to cause others to stumble

Practical Solutions

1. I learned the hard way to avoid night clubs after having some dude hump m y leg like a dog.

2. I'll be honest and admit that I go line dancing with my friends on occasion. A couple of us are married and those that are do not dance with other gentlemen. Some of the songs are harmless others are not. This isn't a God honoring activity though when you get down to it.

3. Avoid if possible

4. Bowling, picnics, haven't been to many weddings sans dancing

5. Listen to the songs you're dancing to, are they sinful? Dance with your spouse over a stranger. Honor God in your decisions.

Re: Moral Issues Facing The Church

Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 8:15 am
by Chozon1

1) Well, there's ballroom, new style ballroom, ballet, street, and spasm.

2) Not sure how to answer this question. There's religious, political, emotional...too many to count.

3) a) We shouldn't place our exercise or desires over doing what is right.

b) We also shouldn't do something fun if it's also wrong.

c) Christians don't need to follow the crowd (and ironically, when I first read this lesson I was like "but the Pentecostals do it") in wrong doing.

d) There is no possible reason we should do something evil to get something good.

e) We shouldn't do anything that could cause someone else to fall.

4) I frequently hear that it's another method of self expression, like painting.

5) Depends on the style of dancing. The stuff you see on Dancing with the stars? Yeah. But break dancing? No. Interpretive dance? No.


1) The difference is the motivation and attitude of the dancers, I think. There were also probably costuming differences, as well as perhaps dancing styles. I'm certain when David was dancing before God, and Miriam in praise, the dances were not lascivious in nature. And again, I'd say it depended on the dancing style and the dancers; I'd say it falls from dirty to worship now just as much as it did then.

2) Inclined to lustfulness or arousing sexual desire.

3) Sexually unrestrained by morality

4) obscene or indecent

5) Boisterous activity

6) Unnecessary or motiveless unrestrained decadence.

a) That they are evil, of the old man, and that we should avoid them at all costs to ourselves.

7) Some of it, certainly; the way a lot of dancers move is very provocative and sensual, and the costumes leave very little to the imagination. Some of them are unashamedly sexual in nature, and stuff that no one needs to see, let alone Christians who are supposed to be salt and light.

8) Probably the motivation and attitude of the dancers, as well as a very lax sense of sexual purity in our culture.

9) If dancing was evil, God probably would have said something to David, Miriam, or any of the other people who did it. So, yeah; I'd say so.

10) I know the answer they want, which is both. And I'd probably tend to say it was right; but if the dancing is a clean form as opposed to a dirty one, and the other person genuinely has no idea of being a stumbling stone, I'm not so sure.

11) Yes, I think so; if you're dancing in worship to God, or praise of Him, why not? I tend to be inspired, rather than shamed, when I read of David humbling himself before God, yet praising Him with all of his heart.

12) I realize we should never be a stumbling block to someone else. It's a very serious thing. But there comes a point where it's on my conscious and my heart, and my problem, and not something others should have to deal with. There's a video of a church dancing there shoes off for charity and worshiping God; it's a beautiful video. If I were to start lusting after women (all of them modestly attired) in the video, is that their fault or mine? Should they have to stop everything they're doing in complete innocence simply because I can't control myself? It's one thing if the activity is genuinely evil, but...yeesh.


1) If it's evil, we shouldn't do it; we spent enough time on evil stuff before our salvation.

2) We can't, I 'spose. But then, if the dancing is clean as opposed to dirty, I don't think it would be sin. I'm not lusting after my friends when I play DDR with them.

3) Dance the good way, avoid doing the evil sexual stuff. Dance for God and before Him, as opposed to sinful enjoyment.

4) Play a boardgame, I guess. Or watch TV. Talk. Listen to music. Play music. That's kind of a very open question.

5) Yes, yes I do. I struggled with this lesson because, frankly, I couldn't get over my own preconceived notions, and honestly...I don't believe dancing is inherently evil. Often twisted, often evil, often grody and dirty beyond all reason. But ANY activity can be twisted into those things in our world. Though certainly, if I were married, I think it would be rather awkward to dance with another lady besides my wife.

Re: Moral Issues Facing The Church

Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 7:04 pm
by fathom123
Hey guys! I had a huge job and work has been so busy for the last two weeks. Sorry for not responding.

Preliminary Thoughts

1. Break dancing, ballroom dancing, hip hop dancing, mosh pit?

2. Personal desire for dancing. Their view of the church as being legalistic so they disregard any issue that brings them joy as being something that the Lord must approve of.

Timothy-Bodily discipline holds little profit, but your spiritual life is what matters in the end. I could see this verse making sense only so fare as if the discipline of the body were to be a point of idolatry. The body is important to be maintained in health as a temple of the Lord.

Hebrews-Choosing to endure the ill treatment of others is better than participating in sin. Since the bible doesn't recognize all dancing as sin, this verse is a hard one to actually label in conjunction with dancing. In fact, the verse in context is referencing what Moses did in refusing to accept the title of Pharaoh’s son and in doing so he chose ill treatment instead of a life of luxury.

Matthew-Socially doesn't necessarily mean it's in the realm of the secular. If something is considered acceptable in a church then the social context is different than the the path that is broad that leads to destruction. Be careful of elitism that attributes a greater righteousness based on a legalistic perspective. Social is not the same thing as secular.

Romans-Let us do evil? How is dancing evil? David danced before the Lord. He ripped off his clothes, mind you. There is a form of dancing that is evil, yes, but there are evil forms of everything.

2 Corinthians-EXACTLY! Pride in heart is greater than appearance. How can you say that dancing is evil if it is an act that maintains a physical appearance of righteousness without displaying the heart. If someone is at a dance and they dress modestly and have fun without making it inappropriate, then how is that less righteous than someone sitting on the sidelines with a bible in hand refusing to participate?


5. If the type of dancing you are doing would be inappropriate without music then you shouldn't be doing that type of dancing. That doesn't, however, condemn all forms of dancing.

What does the bible say?

1. I think the better question is what would this bible study classify modern dancing? I have yet to be to a youth group setting where freak dancing was taking place. If it was, there was a youth leader there to explain to them why that would be considered wrong. I've seen Christian break dancers who glorify God with their ability to do gravity defying moves with their bodies. I've seen Christian ballroom dancers that tear up the dance floor in worship. I don't understand why this bible study is asking why modern (or current with the times) forms of dancing are evil. Guns exist, you can use a gun for hunting and home defense which are both justifiable in accordance with the word but then again you can use guns to do evil and harm others. Dancing is a neutral subject that can be used for good or evil and just because it's "modern" doesn't make it less evil.

2. Given to expressing lust.

3. Lacking moral discipline.

4. Lustful, obscene.

5. Lively and noisy festivities.

6. Marked by unprovoked, gratuitous maliciousness.
Mark-What comes out of a man is what matters. So don't dance like a ho.
Romans-Don't behave as in the times of drunkenness. So don't dance like a ho.
2 Corinthians-Paul will mourn over those who have not repented of their vile behavior. So don't dance like a ho.
Ephesians-Don't act like the world. So don't dance like a ho.
1 Peter-Jesus is dead to sin. Don't be like the world including dancing like a ho.
2 Peter- Don't act like the world. Don't dance like a ho.
Jude-Yes, you can take dancing and use it as an excuse to do evil. Wolves in sheep clothing and all. So don't dance like a ho.

7. Yes. If you worked as an exotic dancer in a strip club. Instead, don't do that and be holy.

8. Modern dancing CAN be immoral. It can be immoral if one incorporates immoral practices (like lustful and sexual themes) into the dancing. Otherwise, it's not immoral.

9. In a secular sense, yes. The world will always keep degrading in all that it does including dancing. The church, however, so long as it has a righteous sense about it, will have a form of dancing that is glorifying to God. Always.

10. The person having the evil thoughts is the one in sin.

11. I think the better question is, where is the line? Am I supposed to do nothing with my life? Take no risks, enjoy what is given to me and in doing so I save the rest of the world from the possibility of someone stumbling.

12. The question is if the person is weak and doesn't know the difference between a clean dance and a lewd one the the person who is not perceiving it as lewd needs to seriously set boundaries up front if the question of lewd behavior were to even be considered. Otherwise the answer to this question is to live under a rock and be constantly afraid of offending someone or causing them to stumble.

Practical Solutions

1. Christians should not avoid the places so much as avoid being apart of the culture. They should never partake in lewd dancing but how is light effective if not in the midst of darkness? If the answer is that a christian should avoid every scenario where sin is taking place, how will people see the love of Christ on their terms?

2. Because dancing is not a sin. Lewd dancing is a sin, it promotes promiscuity and seduction. There's a clear difference.

3. Have fun and enjoy it so long as boundaries are clearly communicated and you have an understanding of who all is involved.

4. You can do all sorts of stuff, video games, cooking, eating, drinking, etc.

5. Yes, I disagree with this section. David danced before the Lord. Going even as far as ripping his clothing off in front of everyone. David wasn't afraid to live life because others may get the wrong idea. Personally, I wouldn't consider a life so guarded a life at all.

Re: Moral Issues Facing The Church

Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 10:14 am
by Chozon1

1) The common Hebrew word for wine is yayin , from a root meaning "to boil up," "to be in a ferment."

2) Alcoholism is alcohol addiction. Drunkenness just means that you're drunk.

3) I'd call it fairly large. It seems acceptable now to crawl into a bottle when things get tough, and generally it's just "humorous" when someone gets sloppy drunk. A lot of people do it intentionally.

4) Surprisingly enough, most of the stuff I read indicated that the alcoholic content of wine and beer in the bible was likely the same as it now. With the caveat that wine was often diluted when drank, and distilled beverages did not exist.

5) Relaxation, kills gut bacteria, and in small amounts is generally healthful.

6) Stupidity, all manner of illness related to filter organs, and a strong tendency for addiction, and you're a completely different person when drunk.

7) Not that I can think of.


1) It makes you stupid and tends to cloud your thinking. It also removes your neural inhibitors.


a) To cheer the heart, but it only lasts as long as you keep drinking.

b) To forget our problems; no, because sometimes forgetting something is the wrong thing to do. And hiding from your problems rarely solves them.

c) To ease the pain in our lives; we need to take our fear, our pain, and our problems to God, and give them to Him. He's the only one big enough to handle them, and we can gain real peace through Him alone.

d) The pressure to give in to the way the world does things, which always needs to be resisted.

3) I 'spose it sneaks up on; everything seems fine until the snake lashes out from the shadows.


a) Drunkenness and gluttony lead to being poor and clothed with rags.

b) It leads to sleeping through life, it bites like a snake or viper, it leads to red eyes, conflicts, sorrow, needless injury and numbness.

c) It can lead to forgetfulness and a perversion of justice.

5) No; He's trying to keep us from harm.

6) That it's a sin akin to the worst foulness.

7) The passage in particular says we shouldn't give in to evil simply because everyone else does, but keep ourselves clean from all evil. However, Jesus did make wine for a large festive gathering, so I have to believe that drunkenness is the sin, not alcohol, whether other people are around or not.

8) As men who made very foolish decisions, or did nasty things under the influence.

9) Likely...because they do? At least wine; the hard stuff? You'd have a tougher time with that.

But yes, these passages are necessarily talking about the intoxicating kind of wine. Otherwise, there would be no need to warn about being "addicted to much wine" in Titus, nor would simple grape juice help Timothy's stomach issues.


1) No one is trying to justify getting drunk or alcoholism, or at least Christians shouldn't. If they are, that's another story. Justifying drinking is just another matter of freedom, and one actually attested to by the bible without twisting stuff around.

2) Depends on the person, I think. I don't and don't think I will because I have an addictive personality with escapist leanings. Certainly, alcohol is dangerous and could just as easily be called stupid juice. To put it in a way I can understand, I'm not going to give up cheeseburgers because there's the possibility of glutting myself on them.

3) The Holy Spirits; by prayer, as well as "speaking to one another in psalms, hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making music to the Lord in your heart".

4) Depends on a lot of stuff. If you're pressured though, I'd say resist simply because peer-pressure is usually a bad thing, and often one small step leads to falling off a cliff.

5) Yes? No? Maybe? Thing is, I was raised in a Baptist home with no alcohol. I don't drink because if I started, I don't think I'd stop. I'm also afraid of what I would do if I lost control (which is another danger, as a lot of abuse stems from alcohol). At the same time, I don't think Wine or beer are necessarily evil (I'm torn on hard drink, since...the only purpose for that is to get you rapidly drunk in a short amount of time), and I certainly won't balk at a brother or sister drinking around me (unless they get drunk, which admittedly, I would be uncomfortable with).

So...yeah. Confusion. There's the possibility for great evil, but also not; just like eating at a buffet leads to the possibility of gluttony (which is warned of, just like drinking), but also possibly not. Small amounts of alcohol in your system (Beer, sans alcohol, is actually really healthy for you, but that's not important in this context) are good for your system, and clean your gut of nasties, heal your heart, aid your liver. ETC.

On the other hand, alcohol abuse is so prevalent in America today that perhaps swearing the stuff off srsly is a good idea, regardless of the freedom involved. The younger crowd views getting sloshed as a rite of passage and/or a weekend party time.

Re: Moral Issues Facing The Church

Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 4:27 pm
by ccgr
Preliminary Thoughts

1. "strong drink"; "denotes any inebriating drink with about 7–10 percent alcoholic content, not hard liquor

2. Alcoholism is ongoing, drunkenness is to be drunk

3. Big enough to destroy many families and take lives of those who drive under the influence. DUI happen enough where many people lose their licenses temporarily or permanently.

4. The Bible mentions wine which may have between 7-10% alcohol but today we have much more potent drinks.

5. A little bit of wine is good for you

6. Too much hurts your liver and judgement

7. Nope, anyone around you is impacted.

What Does the Bible Say?

1. Wine is a mocker, strong drink a brawler, and whoever is led astray by it is not wise

2. Ecc 10:19 - gladden life temporarily
Pro 31:7 - to forget misery, not permanent solution, problems will still be there once sober again
Pro 31:6 God can help us with our troubles if we bring them to Him
1 Pet 4:1-4 Some drink because others are doing it

3. It may make you do things you regret or if you drink too much give you a nasty hang over

4. Pro 23:19-21 Drinking can bring you down financially and cause you to lose work
Pro 23:29-35 When drunk you feel no pain...until you're sober again and then repeat the cycle getting you addicted. You may say and do foolish things. You may get into brawls.
Pro 31:4-5 Leaders should not make decrees while intoxicated, they may regret their decisions

5. No, in the end it's better to avoid

6. God does not tolerate drunkeness

7. Don't given into the crowd they may turn on you if you don't join them

8. Noah was drunk and naked in his bed
Lots daughters got him drunk and got pregnant by him unaware
Elah made his subjects unhappy with his drinking and got killed
Belshazzar was arrogant and was drunk when Go cast judgement on him

9. There's a difference between casually drinking and drinking to get drunk. I'm not completely sold that Jesus merely made grape juice but it may have had less alcohol than the other instances of wine, regardless He never drank too much.

Practical Solutions

1. Alcohol can harm families regardless of their religious beliefs. Alcohol should not be taken lightly and one should consider the side effects before consuming it.

2. A glass of wine at dinner is fine or the occasional beer as long as you know when to stop. Just be responsible and make other driving arrangements if needed. Don't make it a habit or a priority. Don't drink in front of impressionable kids or fellow believers especially those who are struggling with alcoholism.

3. A Christian should be under the influence of the Holy Spirit, believe in God and His son!

4. I decline. My friends like me being the designated driver anyway. :)

5. I personally don't drink since it makes my spouse uncomfortable. While I don't mind wine coolers or other sweet drinks. I never liked wine, beer or champagne anyway. Living without alcohol isn't that much of a sacrifice for me. I've only been drunk once in my life and it happened accidentally as a child and I don't remember it. (Maybe that's why I don't like wine anymore....)

Re: Moral Issues Facing The Church

Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 10:25 am
by Chozon1
1) The betting of money or valuable objects on a game, either of skill or chance.

2) It's more "fun" to have higher stakes on a game, at least sometimes. There's also the element of reward in the risk.

3) I'm not sure I understand the question. There's serious "this might ruin my life" card games to small conversational "bet you can't (insert challenge)" moments.


a) I think it's probably a bit of both. But not really poignant to the argument, since life happens, but gambling is a choice.

b) God is in control, certainly. But then, God is in control of dice and cards as well; there's even a verse somewhere that says the lot belongs to God. Farming is a gamble, because you're not in control of the outcome, and sometimes a storm happens, even though harvest time comes without ceasing.

c) Uh...k. It can be both you know. It's a guess that may/may not pay off. 'Spose I can provide for my own without insurance?



a) That would probably depend on the gambling in question; If I blow all my money in a casino, that's problematic. If I invest in something (stock, small business, ETC) and it's a wise choice, then I'd say no. God owns all of our possessions, and we are held accountable to Him for how we use them.

b) I'm not certain this makes sense to me; if I bet that I could eat more sammiches before you and succeed, then to my mind I've earned that money, so long as I did not cheat. I wouldn't consider that stealing any more than if you paid me to mow the lawn.

c) If it's based upon greed or covetousness, it's wrong. But that could be said of anything, even honest work. Just because two people agree on something doesn't make it right; wrong is wrong, and opinion on the matter won't change it.

d) I 'spose it can be; if you have a sweet car that I want and I bet you for it, yes; I think the problem here is that I have the image of a good British wager in my mind, whereas the lesson is addressing seedy greedy deals.

e) It could, if your only desire is for more and more money. So could hard work though, just to be fair.

f) I don't know; does putting money into something with the hope of returning a profit (like, say, remodeling a home or going to college) mean you're extorting? If the contest is fair and the participants able to win, I'm not sure it is exploitative. Paying to get into a contest of skill is gambling.

g) Of all the awesome work ethic verses in the bible, they pick the curse in Eden? I would think it does, regardless. Working hard and honestly is the best way to earn money.

h) It certainly can; a lot of people ruin themselves over getting into gambling debt.

i) It could.

j) Both, probably. Depends on the atmosphere. Shady back room "lose your finger if you don't have the cash" card games? Bad company. Friendly wagers? I'm more uncertain about.

k) On earth, certainly. But that money you work hard for won't go to heaven either. Again, I'm not sure. If I used skill (in a fair and equal contest), like in a card game that's balanced, and won the money through fair and honest victory, is it unjust gain?


Law of Labor: Means you earned the money by working for it.

Law of exchange: I'm guessing this means you trade something of value in exchange for money.

Law of love: This is where you are simply given something for no cost to you.

I'm uncertain; likely, a quick easy way to gain money if it works. A waste of money if it doesn't. I'm not certain I'd define it as sin any more than, say, going to an arcade though.


1) I'm not sure. If it's wrong, we shouldn't do it, clearly. That aside, I'm have a brain fog and genuinely can't understand the question.

2) a) Remind ourselves that earthly things are temporary.

b) Remember that we are to show love to everyone, and love does no wrong.

c) Live a Spirit lead life.

d) Trust in God, not our self.

e) Do everything in the name of God; if we cannot do it God's name, we shouldn't do it.

f) Take every thought captive to Jesus.

g) Produce good fruit by obeying God.

3) Yes, I do; this was another lesson that said " (insert verb) is wrong" and then proceeded to dance around the bible pulling verses and truths willy nilly to forcibly prove it. And I'm not sure I like that. I get that living a life of casino hopping or cardsharking is wrong, but I don't get why gambling is; I didn't get that from this lesson (could just have a dense head, and just missed it). I don't always need a "this is why" answer, but I appreciate it when it's not something indicated to be clearly wrong (EG: Murder vs. consuming alcohol). I 'spose I've always likened it to going to an arcade or to the movies; you set a certain amount of money you're willing to spend for the sake of fun, and then don't go past it. It may not be possible to do that; I've never been to a casino, so I don't honestly know. Point is, I was more aggravated by this lesson than taught by it.

And I don't even gamble. O_o

Re: Moral Issues Facing The Church

Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 5:18 pm
by ccgr

1. Trying to win money instead of earning it, the odds are typically no in your favor
2. The allure of winning big is too much for some to resist
3. Bingo to casino style games
4. Life is full of unknowns, not necessarily a gamble, we plant the seeds, God causes them to sprout more of a miracle than a gamble, buying insurance is law and helps take care of a loved one in a time of need

What does the Bible say?

a. God owns everything, we are not to be careless and waste them
b. Gambling can ruin people's lives and we should not encourage it
c. I don't consider it stealing but it certainly promotes greed and coveting
d. I would say so
e. most certainly
f. yes it can
g. Yes, we are told to work hard for our wages
h. definitely, people often lose many possessions
i. Yes it can lead others astray
j. bad company
k. earth, unjust gain

Ephesians 4:28
Let the thief no longer steal, but rather let him labor, doing honest work with his own hands, so that he may have something to share with anyone in need.
Proverbs 31:16 She considers a field and buys it; with the fruit of her hands she plants a vineyard.
Proverbs 17:8 A gift is as a precious stone in the eyes of him that hath it: whithersoever it turneth, it prospereth.

Gambling wages are not earned, traded for or freely given.

Practical Solutions

1. I try to avoid gambling of all kinds.

2. Don't love earthly things (money), don't covet, don't live for the flesh, trust in the Lord, do everything in Christ, obey Christ, bring forth good fruit

3. I'm glad I don't gamble :)

Re: Moral Issues Facing The Church

Posted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 10:30 am
by Chozon1
1) According to the dictionary "sexual desire or behavior toward a person of one's own gender".

2) No, it's quite ancient; I'm guessing we hear a lot about it now because morals are slacking in todays world. Probably also because people are more accepting of sin now. There's also the fact that TV and the internet are covering the planet.

3) a) "I was born this way"

b) "I can't help the way I feel"

c) "It happens in nature".

4) I don't know; sometimes it's a matter of sin, like what Paul was talking about. Others, I think, that's just the particular sin Satan is attacking them with.

5) I don't know how to answer that. I don't think temptations are sin, since Jesus was tempted, but was without sin. Feelings are a little trickier, since Jesus said hating someone was like murdering them. I 'spose it's giving in to the feelings that's a sin though.

6) Yes. Absolutely. Doesn't mean it's easy, but God does provide a way out of any temptation if we turn to Him.

7) I don't think it's a disease, nor the sickest sin ever. I don't think it's an inborn trait, either. Bible seems to indicate it's a matter of sin in our lives. And even if it is something we're born with, so is sin; doesn't make it right. I also don't believe it to be a legit alternative lifestyle (which used to mean recycling and going green. O_O Gotta pay attention to that now); God created men's and women's to marry the other, not the same gender.


1) Nope. It's reported in the bible "shortly" after the creation of the earth, and loads of places in extrabiblical records.

2) God called it an abomination, and it was punished by death.

3) I don't believe so. I think we are what our choices make us. BUt people might claim it was inborn so they don't have to fight it or make excuses for it or be ashamed of it, much like someone born with a physical illness or disability.

4) No. It's the perversion of natural practice because of people's sin.

5) Against it.

6) "Woe to them".

7) a) Abominations.

b) Unjust.

c) Worldly

d) Perverse.

8) That homosexuals, like any other sinner, won't be allowed into heaven; but likewise, they can be redeemed, washed, and sanctified.

9) They'd still be called a homophobe and a gay basher; but in reality, they'd be showing true love.


1) Not if they want to serve God; they'd need to turn away from their sin and repent of it.

2) Yes; He cares far more than we'll ever know, I think. God always provides a way of escape from our temptations, and if we turn to Him, He will help us overcome.

b) Jesus quoted scripture.

c) We can always turn to God.

d) By submitting to God, and resisting the devil.

e) Talking and listening to God.

f) Our thoughts.

3) I 'spose we need to fill the "house" with Jesus.

4) By loving them, and helping them in any way we can.

5) Not really. Homosexuality is the same as any other sin in most ways,'s so prevalent and accepted now, that it's not. If someone steals from us, it's clear they were wrong. But the big thing now is that so many homosexual people don't believe it's a sin, it's hard.

Re: Moral Issues Facing The Church

Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 4:13 pm
by ccgr

Preliminary Thoughts
1. Being attracted to someone of the same gender
2. It's not new just more socially accepted these days
3. genetic, normal, entitled
4. In many cases it's a choice
5. Temptation becomes wrong when it is acted upon
6. You are not tempted more than you can withstand
7. Physical, it's a sexual sin...God does not like it at all but sin is sin. I don't believe it is natural or legitimate.

What does the Bible Say?
1. Same ol' same ol, nothing new and it's been going on for a while.
2. It wasn't to be tolerated and people caught were to be killed
3. People are not born subject to particular sins, they choose to do what they do.
4. No, unnatural
5. Against
6. Woe unto their soul!
7. abominations, unrighteous, idolatry, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire
8. Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
9. A person trying to save another from sin

Practical Solutions

1. No, they must abstain and walk right with God
2. Yes! He offers a way to escape temptation.