For some questions, it is best to understand where people gained that belief. There are many places that people gain their beliefs including: personal experience, dreams and imagination, and learning from another trusted source. If both of you agree that the Bible is trusted source, use the Bible to obtain a common belief.I have a hard time with questions like these, because regardless of what I say, everyone will believe what they want.
I would like to see where he found this in the Bible, just because some one has a PH.D does not mean he knows what he is talking about. Trust in God and the Bible and not in man I say Always back it up with scripture.Yeaahh...now that I take issue with. I don't believe in an omni-God, because I think that's attempting apply Plato's ideas about omni* to God with very little scriptural backing. Does he exist outside of time? Yes. But I also think that he chooses not to see the future. Why? Because if he saw the future, there would be no such thing as free will. Don't care how you spin it, God knowing the future completely and totally negates free will. I am a believer in free will.
So I agree with you, Spartan. I've had many discussions with my bible professors about this issue, and I tend to accept their word more than that of anyone on the internet (No offense to you guys of course, I tend to trust a Ph.D more than a forum poster). Their thoughts go something like this:
Assuming God can know everything about the future: He chooses not to so we have free will.
Assuming he doesn't know the future: We don't have many issues here. We have free will, and life goes on.
If you guys want, I could concoct a logical proof of this. (This would take time...so expect slow responses)
What about the disciples, and have you heard of Messianic Jews?To the Christ bit: Planning. Not guessing. Planning.
Now I will answer each question in a random order. Starting with:That would be all fair and good, but that ignores a really major problem. Judaism isn't about salvation in the sense of proselytization. I've never met an Evangelical Jew, and I bet there sure weren't any back then. The point of Judaism is living to serve God, not to convert everyone you can. Converting to Judaism is actually a long and fairly difficult process, as they often tell you "You probably shouldn't do this."He's always got a plan I bet there were some Egyptian conversion happening in those days. (Again their choice after seeing what He could do)
(The above information is from my friends who are Jewish)
Yeah me three lol.Story of my life.I came up with some pretty good points -- after the argument was over
I ALWAYS come up with great points for debates....after the debate is over.
well said Bascom.Q: Why do some Christian believe in limited atonement?
A: Given the below justification, they prefer human speculation over Biblical truth OR twist the meaning of the words in the Bible to their own liking.
When you have change in your pocket, and see a soda machine, you have the ability to buy a Soda, but also the ability to not use the machine. Likewise, just because God has the ability to know everything including who will become saved, "omniscient," this doesn't mean that God has to use this ability. He also has the power, "omnipotent," to choose not to.
As the respondents have said, we know from scripture that God, in the form of Jesus, has used his omniscience in the past. As a popular example, omniscience was used when Jesus foretold that Judas will betray him [Matthew 26:25]. I've yet to see any indication that man knows the reasons why and when this power is to be used. Anything outside of the Bible, is merely human speculation. We are not perfect, so our speculation is filled with flaws. The Bible uses at least 9 passages to state Christ died so that "All" or "The whole world" have the ability to be saved or atoned for. [John 1:29, John 3:16-17, 2 Corinthians 5:14-15, 1 Timothy 2-6, 1 Timothy 4:10, Titus 2:11, 2 Peter 2:1, 2 Peter 3:9, 1 John 2:2].
According to Wikipedia, the justification for those who believe in limited atonement is that the word "All" or "the world" really means "the Elect" [src=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited_atonement]
God is Omniscient (All Knowing): http://www.parentcompany.com/awareness_of_god/aog12.htm
God is Omnipotent (All Powerful): http://www.parentcompany.com/awareness_of_god/aog13.htm
Yes conflict is fine unless we can't treat each other with love and respect.And some things we can know. Why give up the striving for truth simply to avoid conflict and because you don't know the answer?
Part of the learninating process is the struggle for truth. And part of it is late night cram sessions with cheese and orange soda. I prefer the latter.
This is one of those scenarios where "cherry-picking" a verse can lead to some skewed theological views. Reading the whole chapter gives a clearer idea that to what was just said it that one verse alone. Verses 3 - 5 make it clear that only those that cling God's commandments will be saved. Verse 2 is a verse of hope for the world that anyone has the opportunity to find Christ as there is no limit to his forgiving/ substitutionary power!!
Even though we have free will, God still chose or knows who will be accepting His offer in advance
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