Catholicism and Child Molestation

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ArchAngel
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Re: Catholicism and Child Molestation

Post by ArchAngel »

ArcticFox wrote:
Bruce_Campbell wrote: EDIT: If I agree with AF, does that count as another seal being broken? Or does it only count if ArchAngel does it?
Hmmm good question. Arch?
Bruce is totally seal worthy.
ArcticFox wrote:Here's the thing... I've had some formal education in these matters, some of which was part of leadership training in the BSA. I can tell you that the kind of hate that you guys seem to be so proud of is still less then what these people feel for themselves. I have personally met and interacted with men convicted of these types of crimes and I came away from the experience feeling pity, not hate. These guys hate themselves and what they've done more than you ever will. Sure, there are exceptions where no conscience gets in the way but those are extreme and rare.
I'm not proud of my hate, nor am I bragging. This isn't me building myself up; this is me expressing my feelings about this. I believe you'd met and interacted with these men, but I've had to help the victims deal with the psychological trauma of it. I'm glad some of them feel bad, but I don't care much. It's about the victims and they take #1 priority.
I probably should differentiate myself from blacksinow at this point, and I am not arguing for public execution events, or lynch mobs, or even executions. For these cases, as with all other violent crimes, due process of law and long sentences, like life sentences. Inside, I want them strung up and killed in horrific ways, but justice must be cold.
ArcticFox wrote:It's a mental illness. It needs to be treated if you really want the world to be a safer place for kids. Back in the 19th Century people with prettymuch any kind of mental illness were treated as criminals regardless of what was actually wrong, and it made things worse, not better. As mental health resources and education improved, it became possible to actually help people and make things better. This is another part of that.
It's a loose mental illness; not on par with ones like Alzheimer's and schizophrenia. Frankly, I'm unconvinced of it. I don't see how it's a mental illness anymore than domestic abuse or rape is. In fact, it is rape. The crime should not be any less severe because the "poor man" had a mental illness. Nope, he raped a child and they are generally too sound of mind to get off on an insanity plea, and I don't want to see that door opened too wide for shorter sentences. There are many very important distinctions from past treatment of the mentally handicapped, and frankly it's just no comparable. Our prisons are a bit better than old mental wards, the aren't locked for up attraction to children but an actual real crime with a real victim, they are not unsound of mind, many preying on multiple children, etc.
If a person who has sexual attraction to children wants to be treated, fine. But if they rape someone, lock 'em up and throw away the key. They will get no pity from me.
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blacksinow

Re: Catholicism and Child Molestation

Post by blacksinow »

ArchAngel wrote:
ArcticFox wrote:
Bruce_Campbell wrote: EDIT: If I agree with AF, does that count as another seal being broken? Or does it only count if ArchAngel does it?
Hmmm good question. Arch?
Bruce is totally seal worthy.
ArcticFox wrote:Here's the thing... I've had some formal education in these matters, some of which was part of leadership training in the BSA. I can tell you that the kind of hate that you guys seem to be so proud of is still less then what these people feel for themselves. I have personally met and interacted with men convicted of these types of crimes and I came away from the experience feeling pity, not hate. These guys hate themselves and what they've done more than you ever will. Sure, there are exceptions where no conscience gets in the way but those are extreme and rare.
I'm not proud of my hate, nor am I bragging. This isn't me building myself up; this is me expressing my feelings about this. I believe you'd met and interacted with these men, but I've had to help the victims deal with the psychological trauma of it. I'm glad some of them feel bad, but I don't care much. It's about the victims and they take #1 priority.
I probably should differentiate myself from blacksinow at this point, and I am not arguing for public execution events, or lynch mobs, or even executions. For these cases, as with all other violent crimes, due process of law and long sentences, like life sentences. Inside, I want them strung up and killed in horrific ways, but justice must be cold.
ArcticFox wrote:It's a mental illness. It needs to be treated if you really want the world to be a safer place for kids. Back in the 19th Century people with prettymuch any kind of mental illness were treated as criminals regardless of what was actually wrong, and it made things worse, not better. As mental health resources and education improved, it became possible to actually help people and make things better. This is another part of that.
It's a loose mental illness; not on par with ones like Alzheimer's and schizophrenia. Frankly, I'm unconvinced of it. I don't see how it's a mental illness anymore than domestic abuse or rape is. In fact, it is rape. The crime should not be any less severe because the "poor man" had a mental illness. Nope, he raped a child and they are generally too sound of mind to get off on an insanity plea, and I don't want to see that door opened too wide for shorter sentences. There are many very important distinctions from past treatment of the mentally handicapped, and frankly it's just no comparable. Our prisons are a bit better than old mental wards, the aren't locked for up attraction to children but an actual real crime with a real victim, they are not unsound of mind, many preying on multiple children, etc.
If a person who has sexual attraction to children wants to be treated, fine. But if they rape someone, lock 'em up and throw away the key. They will get no pity from me.
I won't excuse my hate either, but I am simply fed up with people who victimize others. But to say that it's okay because these people are sick and drank lots of booze is NOT excusable. People who commit these crimes should face the court, but also be faced with a decision... seek treatment or die. I don't like the idea of a ticking timebomb and I don't have much faith in people who claim they want treatment but don't actually seek it out. This is not a situation that we cannot compremise in, just like public executions are not a situation that society cannot allow to happen again. Despite my own personal feelings, I know among anyone that this won't solve anything. But I think that forcing the subject of "you're actions are going to get you killed if you do not seek treatment" onto someone guilty of something that terrible should be acceptable. Let the courts decide their ultimate punishment, but make sure that they can't escape into the public to do harm when left untreated, that is all I am saying.o, the notion that we can just feel sorry for anyone who rapes and mollests children because of liquor is something that I cannot nor will not accept. There comes a point in time when you simply must say "enough is enough". There has to be a limit in which people are punished for their crimes in a longterm basis so they cannot repeat such an offense again. I know people who were ruined by this as well, and to say that they are a wreck is an understatement. And what do you mean differentiate yourself from me? I'm not that bad. Just have a stronger sense of justice then most and I admit that I often get ... annoyed at the subject of kids being harmed.

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ArcticFox
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Re: Catholicism and Child Molestation

Post by ArcticFox »

blacksinow wrote:But to say that it's okay because these people are sick and drank lots of booze is NOT excusable.
I'm not aware of anyone saying it was okay. Ever. Certainly not I.

One of the talents God blessed me with is the ability to to track and diagnose problems. When I was an auto mechanic I was one of the best diagnosticians in the shop. As a software developer I find bugs faster than anyone else on the team. You could almost say I have a passion for finding the root of a problem so it can be fixed effectively. (I LOVE House M.D.) That means when something bad happens, like a child gets molested, my first instinct isn't to grab a pitchfork and join a mob. It's to determine exactly what went wrong. Where did the fault occur? Was alcohol involved? Was the molester grooming the child for this before it happened, or was it a sudden impulse? I ask these questions because I want to know the true root cause of the event so that it can be more effectively prevented in the future. Am I excusing the action? Of course not, that would be absurd. But what I am doing is recognizing that the emotional response is not the thing that protects our kids. Understanding the problem is.
blacksinow wrote: People who commit these crimes should face the court, but also be faced with a decision... seek treatment or die.
That's an emotional and non-constructive response. You're talking like an angry mob. I ask you again, is this the Christian response?
blacksinow wrote: I don't like the idea of a ticking timebomb and I don't have much faith in people who claim they want treatment but don't actually seek it out. This is not a situation that we cannot compremise in, just like public executions are not a situation that society cannot allow to happen again. Despite my own personal feelings, I know among anyone that this won't solve anything. But I think that forcing the subject of "you're actions are going to get you killed if you do not seek treatment" onto someone guilty of something that terrible should be acceptable.
Which will not work if the molestation is a result of mental illness. A man who's being driven by an impulse to molest a child isn't going to have a rational process by which he thinks "well, as much as I feel like I need to do this, I'd get into an awful lot of trouble... and it's a capital crime so.... I think I'll just have a baloney and cheese sandwich instead." I"m telling you, execution as a form of deterrent will NOT help in these cases. Putting them to death might make you feel better, but it won't help the next kids who's going to get molested because you (as a society) couldn't be bothered to invest the effort to learn what really causes this stuff and address it constructively.
blacksinow wrote: Let the courts decide their ultimate punishment, but make sure that they can't escape into the public to do harm when left untreated, that is all I am saying.
As I said a long time ago, treatment isn't optional anyway, so why isn't this a moot point?
blacksinow wrote: o, the notion that we can just feel sorry for anyone who rapes and mollests children because of liquor is something that I cannot nor will not accept.
I do feel sorry for them, because they're a victim of their own urges. Of course that doesn't excuse it, but nobody wakes up in the morning and says "Hey! I think I'll go molest some kids today and then have lunch. It'll be great!" They feel driven by it in exactly the same addictive cycle as alcoholics and drug addicts. The only difference is that society makes a real effort to help substance abusers but gets all righteous and uppity over child molesters, which irritates me because I feel like that makes the problem worse, not better.

Understand me here: I'm not excusing or defending child molesters. What I am doing is seeking the path to maximum safety for my children. If that means putting aside my emotional desire for revenge and self-righteousness then that's what needs to happen to keep my kids from becoming victims. No offense, but the mentality you're promoting is making things worse, not better.
blacksinow wrote: Just have a stronger sense of justice then most and I admit that I often get ... annoyed at the subject of kids being harmed.
If you really want to reduce the number of kids being harmed then you need to look at this more constructively. Revenge and justice aren't the same thing. Make sure you know which one you're promoting.
"He who takes offense when no offense is intended is a fool, and he who takes offense when offense is intended is a greater fool."
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blacksinow

Re: Catholicism and Child Molestation

Post by blacksinow »

There comes a point in time that they do have to pay the ultimate price. After their third child, it's best to put them down and treat someone who can be treated. Keeping people around who cannot or will not be helped is not helping anyone else. What if the molester in question wants to see the world burn? How is keeping them alive going to help anyone? How are you going to treat this behavior, hug it out? Oh and let me be clear about something, people who do terrible things because they drink too much do not get my sympathy. The same applies for anyone, you can only change when you want to bad enough. If you can find a way to convince them to change for good, then hey, I'm all for it.

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ArcticFox
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Re: Catholicism and Child Molestation

Post by ArcticFox »

Dude, I once heard the story of a guy in prison who collected clothing catalogs while incarcerated because they had pictures of kids in them. He was eagerly awaiting release just so he could get back out there and prey on kids again.

I'm not saying that there aren't cases where they're beyond help. There are, sadly. The thing is, if we can't help them, it's because we, as a society, don't know enough yet to help out these extreme cases. I *want* us to know how. I want us to have that knowledge. I want us to be able to fix this even in the most extreme examples. We can never achieve that if we just kill off the very people who need it the most.

Now, would I advocate for letting a guy like that out? &%@# NO! He shouldn't be released if he KNOWS he's going to repeat. He should be kept in prison or in a mental health facility where he can't do any more damage. To release someone who hasn't been rehabilitated is a failure in the system, to be sure.

I just don't think execution is an option when more can still be learned.
"He who takes offense when no offense is intended is a fool, and he who takes offense when offense is intended is a greater fool."
—Brigham Young

"Don't take refuge in the false security of consensus."
—Christopher Hitchens

blacksinow

Re: Catholicism and Child Molestation

Post by blacksinow »

It is the cases where people are beyond help that concern me the most to be honest.

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Re: Catholicism and Child Molestation

Post by ArcticFox »

Fortunately, those are very, very rare.

Mind you, the media would have you believe such people are lurking behind every bush, waiting to jump out and grab our kids. But that's a separate issue...
"He who takes offense when no offense is intended is a fool, and he who takes offense when offense is intended is a greater fool."
—Brigham Young

"Don't take refuge in the false security of consensus."
—Christopher Hitchens

blacksinow

Re: Catholicism and Child Molestation

Post by blacksinow »

Oh, I am not nearly that crazy.

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