Catholicism and Child Molestation

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ArcticFox
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Re: Catholicism and Child Molestation

Post by ArcticFox »

Bruce_Campbell wrote: EDIT: If I agree with AF, does that count as another seal being broken? Or does it only count if ArchAngel does it?
Hmmm good question. Arch?
ArchAngel wrote:We might be starting another counter, but I agree with blacksinow on this. They are monsters. You can point at psychological causes all day long, but the atrocities they commit are no less heinous. These aren't mentally handicapped people, like those who talk to people who aren't there, or spend all day rocking and muttering, or peeing on the family pet; they abuse children in some of the most worst ways and the damage echoes throughout their victims lives. I reserve a Cocytusian level of hate for people who commit these crimes.
Here's the thing... I've had some formal education in these matters, some of which was part of leadership training in the BSA. I can tell you that the kind of hate that you guys seem to be so proud of is still less then what these people feel for themselves. I have personally met and interacted with men convicted of these types of crimes and I came away from the experience feeling pity, not hate. These guys hate themselves and what they've done more than you ever will. Sure, there are exceptions where no conscience gets in the way but those are extreme and rare.

It's a mental illness. It needs to be treated if you really want the world to be a safer place for kids. Back in the 19th Century people with prettymuch any kind of mental illness were treated as criminals regardless of what was actually wrong, and it made things worse, not better. As mental health resources and education improved, it became possible to actually help people and make things better. This is another part of that.

To be honest, I find it annoyingly self righteous when people brag about how much they hate child molesters. It comes across as more like strutting around to show how they aren't like that than actually expressing some kind of civic virtue. Frankly, I think that kind of behavior gets in the way of real, useful solutions. In short, you guys ain't helping.

I've got kids and more incentive than most to keep a wary eye out to protect my kids and I'd rather not have people making things worse, thanks.
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blacksinow

Re: Catholicism and Child Molestation

Post by blacksinow »

It doesn't matter if they hate themselves or not, the problem is that the longterm solutions are questionable. Just having someone watch them all the time? I don't feel confident in that solution, if there is a more efficient way to reform them, I'd be accepting of it. But merely throwing them in a prison or an institution is something that I do not have faith in. To make THAT kind of change, you have to WANT to change deep inside. That is the problem and question... How bad do they want to change and do they genuinely want to change? Because sending them to prison and them getting out, just to go back again... can you say for absolute certainty that this actually works? And whether you like it or not, sometimes someone CAN'T be helped, because THEY do not want to be helped.

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Re: Catholicism and Child Molestation

Post by ArcticFox »

blacksinow wrote:It doesn't matter if they hate themselves or not, the problem is that the longterm solutions are questionable. Just having someone watch them all the time? I don't feel confident in that solution, if there is a more efficient way to reform them, I'd be accepting of it. But merely throwing them in a prison or an institution is something that I do not have faith in. To make THAT kind of change, you have to WANT to change deep inside. That is the problem and question... How bad do they want to change and do they genuinely want to change? Because sending them to prison and them getting out, just to go back again... can you say for absolute certainty that this actually works? And whether you like it or not, sometimes someone CAN'T be helped, because THEY do not want to be helped.
In the vast majority of cases, they DO want to be helped. That's why the laws calling for treatment have been so successful. As for the few that don't... I won't defend them other than to keep pointing out it's a mental illness, not willful malice.

But it's good to think about alternatives. It's good to acknowledge that the solution isn't as simple as locking them away forever or killing them. That's how progress gets made.
"He who takes offense when no offense is intended is a fool, and he who takes offense when offense is intended is a greater fool."
—Brigham Young

"Don't take refuge in the false security of consensus."
—Christopher Hitchens

blacksinow

Re: Catholicism and Child Molestation

Post by blacksinow »

Prisons aren't escape proof, so locking them away isn't the answer. That is all there is to it. If they want to change and can be treated, and it has been proven to work, then I am all for letting them live. But the ones who won't, knowing that a mental illness forced a child molester to harm a kid isn't going to be an answer that most people will accept.

I think that I'd also like to know if he baked cakes for non-Christian ceremonies, because it is the same thing.

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Re: Catholicism and Child Molestation

Post by ChickenSoup »

We could cut off their arms and legs =D
My name is ChickenSoup and I have several flavors in which you may be interested

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Re: Catholicism and Child Molestation

Post by blacksinow »

ChickenSoup wrote:We could cut off their arms and legs =D
Considering that cybernetics is becoming a reality, that would never work.

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Re: Catholicism and Child Molestation

Post by ChickenSoup »

We could cut off their bodies?
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blacksinow

Re: Catholicism and Child Molestation

Post by blacksinow »

Tragically, the law forbids us causing harm to child molesters and wife beaters who refuse (or can't) to be treated

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Re: Catholicism and Child Molestation

Post by ArcticFox »

Why is that tragic? Keeping you from your mob justice, is it?
"He who takes offense when no offense is intended is a fool, and he who takes offense when offense is intended is a greater fool."
—Brigham Young

"Don't take refuge in the false security of consensus."
—Christopher Hitchens

blacksinow

Re: Catholicism and Child Molestation

Post by blacksinow »

Let's put it this way...

If I could sell front row tickets to the public execution of every person who has been caught beating women and molesting children and refusing treatment, then I suspect that I would have enough money to provide psychological treatment to those who have suffered and then some. It is different if you actually WANT treatment, because it means that you are not a stain on society, that you can actually do some good. But if you aren't interested in the slightest about being treated, then I think you should not be the world's problem.

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Re: Catholicism and Child Molestation

Post by Bruce_Campbell »

Now that's the love o' Jesus, right there.
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blacksinow

Re: Catholicism and Child Molestation

Post by blacksinow »

Realistically, what could we do with these... people? Not wanting to ever change puts us in a bad position, because again, we can't just lock them up. Someone who wants to cause harm in such a way that is simply horrible and unjustified who never wants to change? Yeah.... no thanks. I am being very fair about this...

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Re: Catholicism and Child Molestation

Post by Bruce_Campbell »

blacksinow wrote:Realistically, what could we do with these... people? Not wanting to ever change puts us in a bad position, because again, we can't just lock them up. Someone who wants to cause harm in such a way that is simply horrible and unjustified who never wants to change? Yeah.... no thanks. I am being very fair about this...
Maybe I just don't want to live in a society where public executions are a thing? Or worse, treated like a sporting event?
A vegan atheist walks into a bar. Bartender says "Hey, are you a vegan atheist? Just kidding, you've mentioned it like eight times already."

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Re: Catholicism and Child Molestation

Post by ArcticFox »

Bruce_Campbell wrote: Maybe I just don't want to live in a society where public executions are a thing? Or worse, treated like a sporting event?
Said it better than I could have, this guy.

Nobody who claims to be a Christian can argue for that level of harshness against anyone, regardless of their crime. Jesus taught compassion, forgiveness and justice, not bloodsports and revenge. Like I said before, I think 90% of the motive behind fiery words of outrage and hate against such easy targets as child molesters is just a way of being a peacock. "Look how righteous I am! I really really hate those guys 'cause I'm so very good and righteous! LOOK AT ME!"

Sorry but I'm a bit jaded.

Remember when I said earlier I've had some formal education in this matter? Gonna share a tidbit with you. Alcohol is involved in a LOT of these kinds of cases. (Remember, most victims of molestation were molested by family members.) You'd be amazed at how many people who committed these crimes don't even remember doing it, or would never have done it had they not been drunk at the time. Now, it's true that on some level that urge has to be there to begin with... The alcohol doesn't just create it... But what it does mean is that there are a LOT more people out there who, with a little alcohol and the right circumstances, would commit the same exact crime.

It isn't the known child molesters I worry about. They've been caught, punished and treated. I worry about the ones who haven't done it yet, or who haven't been caught yet. As a father, that's what I try to be most aware of.
"He who takes offense when no offense is intended is a fool, and he who takes offense when offense is intended is a greater fool."
—Brigham Young

"Don't take refuge in the false security of consensus."
—Christopher Hitchens

blacksinow

Re: Catholicism and Child Molestation

Post by blacksinow »

I would be happy to be compassionate about people who don't want help. In my opinion researching ways of treatment should be accelerated, so this sort of a terrible future should never become a reality. I want these people gone by any means, but I also want a way to prevent this sort of thing from happening.

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