Pheonix wrote:Seems simple enough to just box in the PC players as well but only when they play with a Xbox player.
Wouldn't just work like any other PC connected to a sever? Let me explain this in a weird way. Say Tim is the guy with the PC sever, and Steve is someone on a PC connected to Tim's sever. When Steve walks around generating new blocks, the data goes to Tim's PC. (Thus not taking space on Steve's PC ram, only Tim's.) So when HeroBrine is on a xbox360 on Tim's sever, wouldn't the newly generated blocks go on Tim's PC ram, thus making it no different from when a PC is connected to the PC sever?
... I may not understand how severs work, but I am pretty sure the the guests are using the host's ram space when generating blocks.
Pheonix wrote:Pretty sure the Xbox (and the PS3) has too little RAM to continue to create a world. So, that cannot be changed, the xbox version will always be boxed in.
How will connectivity with the PC servers work, then? Will you just be able to explore that which has already been explored
interestingness 4 shur lawl
Seems simple enough to just box in the PC players as well but only when they play with a Xbox player.
Wait, but why doesn't the 360 have enough RAM? It doesn't generate the entire world continuously, it generates it in chunks and leaves faraway chunks unloaded until you come back. I think it could handle it, couldn't it?
My name is ChickenSoup and I have several flavors in which you may be interested
I also have a slightly PG-13 tumblr that you may not enjoy
Chozon1 wrote:Surprisingly enough, the X360 only has 512MB of RAM. It might be enough on its own, but with all the other stuff running in the background...
wat stuffz
My name is ChickenSoup and I have several flavors in which you may be interested
I also have a slightly PG-13 tumblr that you may not enjoy
Console stuff. It's beyond the capacity of PC gamers to understood. >_>
OK, I don't really know. I know the Dashboard is always running in some capacity, since you can call it up with a button and it pops up instantly. I figure that's also the GUI for the op system, controlling the, er, controllers (Mayhaps Deep can smite or confirm that), as well as the little Live thing that alerts you to anyone on your friends list popping up, ETC.
I'm not sure, but I know there has to be stuff running in the background for the magic box to work the way it does, and I think 512MB's is just too small to keep loading a world that never ends.
As I keep speaking out of my rumpus here, it occurs to me that Oblivion/Skyrim, with it's freaking gigantic world composed of a huge map and uncountable rooms and caves, can be played happily on the 360 reloading periodically. And now I am completely confused and will stop talking before the gigantic neon 'idiot' sign above me head falls on me. I will also go back to considering the PC version if the map remains limited.
XD
I am the Chozon1. And possibly, a booger head. They'll let anyone on Soundclick, apparently.
oh boy...I'll include the technical reasons, (but hide them so they don't clutter the page) but basically the problem is this:
The 360's operating system (Which as Chozon was almost on the right track of, is controlled through the dashboard interface) is always running in the background. The dashboard is running in (IIRC) a reduced form while a game is running. This way, the home button can be pressed and have an almost instantaneous response. It's also why it has to load when you quit a game.
That in and of itself doesn't take up too much RAM or processing power. There's a complicated explanation, but I'll leave that for the spoiler tags below (Be warned, it's quite the lecture).
Spoiler:
(The following is using 4 GB of RAM as an example)
In computer architecture, memory (RAM) is usually divided up into 1 byte sections which are referenced to by addresses. These addresses use a hexadecimal numbering system, from 0x00000001 to 0xFFFFFFFF (Unrelated fact: Ever had a program error out with something in this format? It's saying that there was a memory error somewhere down the line). Each digit represents one byte of memory. Each byte is broken up into 8 bits (Binary digits). The long and short of this means that there are 4 billion (And change) addresses in a 4GB system. (For 512 MB it would be 512 million and change)
Now the processor is, essentially, a series of registers (Which can store data for manipulation), an ALU (Arithmetic Logic Unit: it performs math and other functions), a series of buses and caches (for moving things around), and a memory interface. The processor comes with a built-in series of instructions that read operation-codes (op-codes) from memory. This is part of the reason why PowerPC (Old Macintosh stuff) and Intel (Current Mac and current and past Windows) programs are incompatible. The processors don't know how to interpret the other's op-codes.
When we put this all together, we get a processor that can access 4 GB of information at any given time. Great, right? Well, now we need to discuss memory layout. First off, I want you to visualize memory as a tower, or a document. Put the low addresses (0x00000001 and such) at the top, and the high addresses (0xFFFFFFFF) at the bottom. So we're looking at a tower with numbers going from 1 to 4,294,967,295. Let's start at the top. The first series of addresses (Depending on the OS) are reserved for the operating system. That's a topic really not needed here, and I'm not even that knowledgeable on it. The next few blocks are related to program variables and code storage. The next important is the stack space. This is where the processor will push information it needs to save for later.
So the important part of that discussion was that the space of memory that the processor can use is limited to essentially the stack space. What does this mean for Minecraft on the 360? read on, my friend!
The 360 has 3 processor cores on it's chip. This means there are three distinct processors it can access. Actually using it is a multi-threaded discussion, which is out of scope for this discussion. It has 512 MB of RAM, which is a quarter of the amount we discussed above. Take away a sizable portion for the OS, and we're left with not that much. Ever wondered why games like Skyrim and Oblivion have those "Loading Area" notices? This is why.
So with three cores to access, the operating system isn't too draining on the Xbox. The real bottleneck is RAM. The embedded nature of the 360 OS makes the amount of RAM an almost-trivial discussion from a design perspective, which is why most of the RAM is still accessible to games.
Now, Minecraft has not been noted for it's use of efficient chunking algorithms. It's a complicated system, one almost more intense than a traditional 3D game. Minecraft is a memory hog on PCs, even ones with lots of RAM. So the big reason that Minecraft on the 360 is limited is because of the inefficiency of the algorithms used.
So how will they accomplish cross-platform play? I suspect that they will use Chozon's method (Reload whenever you leave the borders of the 1000x1000 block). That, or programming wizardry. XD
JOJ650s wrote:
Pheonix wrote:Seems simple enough to just box in the PC players as well but only when they play with a Xbox player.
Wouldn't just work like any other PC connected to a sever? Let me explain this in a weird way. Say Tim is the guy with the PC sever, and Steve is someone on a PC connected to Tim's sever. When Steve walks around generating new blocks, the data goes to Tim's PC. (Thus not taking space on Steve's PC ram, only Tim's.) So when HeroBrine is on a xbox360 on Tim's sever, wouldn't the newly generated blocks go on Tim's PC ram, thus making it no different from when a PC is connected to the PC sever?
... I may not understand how severs work, but I am pretty sure the the guests are using the host's ram space when generating blocks.
You've got the right idea, but you're forgetting that the world has to be loaded on both machines. While yes, the "Work" is done on the server, the client still has to go through the rendering process. The example sorta works if you look at it like this:
Suppose we've got three people. Alice, Bob, and Steve. Steve is the server admin. Alice and Bob are both client machines. Bob and Alice are nowhere near each other. They build their own structures, and all is fine. Neither of them can see the other, so the only one that has to render both is the server, Steve. Now if Alice and Bob were facing each other, both Clients and the Server would be rendering the same thing. Bob would have to render his changes AND Alice's changes at the same time, and vice versa. See what I mean?
You're thinking of a web-based concept like Onlive, where all the work is done server-side and is relayed back to the client. Sadly, Minecraft does not work that way. :/
If any of my explanations were deficient or confusing, let me know and I'll clarify ASAP.
(The following is using 4 GB of RAM as an example)
In computer architecture, memory (RAM) is usually divided up into 1 byte sections which are referenced to by addresses. These addresses use a hexadecimal numbering system, from 0x00000001 to 0xFFFFFFFF (Unrelated fact: Ever had a program error out with something in this format? It's saying that there was a memory error somewhere down the line). Each digit represents one byte of memory. Each byte is broken up into 4 bits (Binary digits). The long and short of this means that there are 4 billion (And change) addresses in a 4GB system. (For 512 MB it would be 512 million and change)
Now the processor is, essentially, a series of registers (Which can store data for manipulation), an ALU (Arithmetic Logic Unit: it performs math and other functions), a series of buses and caches (for moving things around), and a memory interface. The processor comes with a built-in series of instructions that read operation-codes (op-codes) from memory. This is part of the reason why PowerPC (Old Macintosh stuff) and Intel (Current Mac and current and past Windows) programs are incompatible. The processors don't know how to interpret the other's op-codes.
When we put this all together, we get a processor that can access 4 GB of information at any given time. Great, right? Well, now we need to discuss memory layout. First off, I want you to visualize memory as a tower, or a document. Put the low addresses (0x00000001 and such) at the top, and the high addresses (0xFFFFFFFF) at the bottom. So we're looking at a tower with numbers going from 1 to 4,294,967,295. Let's start at the top. The first series of addresses (Depending on the OS) are reserved for the operating system. That's a topic really not needed here, and I'm not even that knowledgeable on it. The next few blocks are related to program variables and code storage. The next important is the stack space. This is where the processor will push information it needs to save for later.
So the important part of that discussion was that the space of memory that the processor can use is limited to essentially the stack space. What does this mean for Minecraft on the 360? read on, my friend!
The 360 has 3 processor cores on it's chip. This means there are three distinct processors it can access. Actually using it is a multi-threaded discussion, which is out of scope for this discussion. It has 512 MB of RAM, which is a quarter of the amount we discussed above. Take away a sizable portion for the OS, and we're left with not that much. Ever wondered why games like Skyrim and Oblivion have those "Loading Area" notices? This is why.
So with three cores to access, the operating system isn't too draining on the Xbox. The real bottleneck is RAM. The embedded nature of the 360 OS makes the amount of RAM an almost-trivial discussion from a design perspective, which is why most of the RAM is still accessible to games.
Konig_Twinkies wrote:Yeah lol. If any of you ever see my world online (Land O' Awesome), feel free to join. I made it specifically for multiplayer
I haven't been able to play with you yet. I should be able to play one of these days maybe. I have graduations I have to go to on the weekend (Friday and Saturday) but I might be able to hop on your server if you are up for it. I might also have a friend over too.
ChickenSoup wrote:THAT'S THE COOL WAY TO SPELL GROUP.
ANYWAY.
I BOUGHT THE 360 VERSION.
Seeing as it doesn't quite seem like we can join the PC servers yet, how many of you guys have bought it/will buy it? WE SHOULD TOTES PLAY AND STUFF.
For those who don't know, my gamertag is MatthiasGarner. Same as my name on PC Minecraft.
I have it for the Xbox and I am friends with you on the Xbox, and I saw you online playing Minecraft 2 times. but I don't have Xbox live gold
ssss
Hosea 4:6
6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Because you have rejected knowledge, I also will reject you from being priest for Me; Because you have forgotten the law of your God, I also will forget your children.
ssss
